Right but have you heard what the democrats have been saying about Sara Palin?


talk about Mysogistic crap. really. i mean its redonculous.

I mean, obama has almost no expereince, and 2 kids.

How the heck can he be president?

There are no innocents here.

The McCain camp is a bit more overt in their poo flinging while the Obama camp has been satisfied to let places like Daily Kos do their dirty work for them.

As far as I can tell, no matter who wins, we all lose.

My side is right.
Your side is wrong.
Everything your side does is dishonest.
Everything we say is true.
Everything sucks except what my candidate says and does.

Can't we just vote right now and get it over with?

I mean, we've all made up our minds, and the only thing that's really happening now... the only thing that is gonna happen until the election... is that both sides will sling as much muck back and forth, as much crap as possible, without talking about the actual issues.

Choose who you believe.
Pretty hard to do.
2 shit candidates.
Which one is gonna do the most to keep you safe?
Which one is gonna tax you less?
Which one is gonna protect you borders, language and culture the best?

All the rest of this muck slinging is just a bunch of bullshit that divides us all further... and you ain't seen nothin' yet.

But Al........They're ALL dishonest. If they aren't coming out of the shoot, then they soon will be once they matriculate into the real world—or else!!

Example. Obama is constantly yammering "lower taxes" (Gee, where have we heard that before?) yet, championing Universal or National Health Care. Ever wonder how something like that could be possibly be implemented by lowering taxation and not increasing it?

I've got news for you, if something like that is ever passed in this country you can best expect levels of taxation that would probably exceed what they have in the U.K. I'm not sure what those levels are but I'm sure that they're much higher than what we have here.

Also, this nation is now a debtor nation thats earning power has been compromised by N.A.F.T.A. So, no matter what bullshit they're slinging at you and regardless of who's slinging it,
the piper is going to have to be paid to the tune of trillions of inflated, fiat "Federal Reserve" dollars.

So, all the politicians (any politician for that matter) can do is blow smoke up our collective ass, ameliorating us to death with lies and warm fuzzies.

"Can't we just vote right now and get it over with?"

I could not agree more. The whole election cycle is way too long.

That's right, it ain't "free". It comes from tax money.

The national debt is taken from tax money. No matter what those people say there's no way that we're ever going to see taxes decrease, not in the boat we're in now!

So does it surprise you guys that people get sick or something?

Everyone pays for it-Not just you guys.Just like everyone gets Temp healthcare if they lose their job,but that last six months.

It is what it is-bitching doesn't make it go away

Another possible predicament: Say that I get a job that provides health bennies. They take a look at my medical records and say, "We're not liable to cover the MRI you need because it is a "preexisting condition".

The health care system ( like any other profit-driven enterprise) is essentially greed-driven. There are many, many people that have been forsaken and hurt by this system; horror stories that most of us have never even heard about—many of them involving children as well.

The health care system needs massive reform and overhauling.
It's a different, far more complicated world that we live in today; a world with problems that perhaps only a socialist system can address—as much as I hate to admit it. But I see the writing on the wall.

Where would we be today without unemployment insurance, workman's compensation, low income housing and other programs designed and introduced into society through Roosevelt's "New Deal" politics in the thirties that helped bring this country out of the depression?

It's all crumbling. The only solution is for big government to intercede and pick-up the pieces. It's planned that way. Things aren't going to be getting any easier around here!

Startling revelation, Milhouse. Free health care ain't free.

The flaw in your anal-ysis is that it isn't just people who have fancy cars or houses or whatever who have problems getting health insurance. I make pretty good money, but if I had to pay for my own health care insurance for myself, my wife and kid, I'd be fucked. And I drive a saturn (paid for), a small house (mortgage) and have a few luxuries. And I'm sure I'm not unique.

We apparently have plenty of money to go fucking around in Iraq, we don't have money to make sure that -Americans- don't go without health care.

It's nothing more than the usual Republican "I've got mine, go fuck yourself".

"I just can't understand why people think it's so hard to have health insurance! The money we all spend on less important things is mind boggling".

I can't understand why people think it's ok to piss away billions of dollars on a specious "war" in Iraq when we have more problems than we're able to fix here at home.

Vote for McCain. Get more war.

"Ahh never mind, those of you who agree don't need to hear it, those of you who disagree think we should be taxed more to take care of the illegal aliens. Bunch of f*cking Stalinists"

A vote for McCain is a vote against America and the Constitution.

"Vote for your Obama and get your Socialist Healthcare, and State Run Energy, etc. etc. you deserve it."

Vote for McCain, because fascism world so well for the Germans, so it oughta work here too.

Sarah Palin is a nigger!




Oh, wait.....

guys that run their own businesses are supposed to have a lexus

That's an unwritten rule- but they're supposed to do it under the table

see, it's an understanding that the risk you take in starting up your own business, that's a BIG contribution to the economy, in a global AND a local sense

If your business tanks, you lose your house

If it moderately succeeds and you play by the written rules, you probably still lose the motherf*cker

If it stays afloat it's because you f*cked the system

Either way, that's a risk that should be rewarded by the very system that seems like although they claim to want you to succeed, they make rules and rules and rules and rules and then some regulations about the parameters in which you must work

when I sold pot I did it because it was the ONLY pure form of capitalism left- nobody had their hand in the cookie jar, people were aware of what they were buying, knew if they were getting aq good deal- if there was a middleman, the guys on either side of him (seller, buyer) KNEW the motherf*cker

I don't have the balls to take on the IRS or start a business, but I have a huge stake in one...

But that's not Universal health care anyways- there's affordable enough health care for the small business owner- there is, and it's because of capitalism- the cheap guys get more business

Swanee go sh*t up a tree

"I make pretty good money, but if I had to pay for my own health care insurance for myself, my wife and kid, I'd be fucked. And I drive a saturn (paid for), a small house (mortgage) and have a few luxuries. And I'm sure I'm not unique."

Tom said it well......

"when I sold pot I did it because it was the ONLY pure form of capitalism left- nobody had their hand in the cookie jar, people were aware of what they were buying, knew if they were getting aq good deal- if there was a middleman, the guys on either side of him (seller, buyer) KNEW the motherf*cker"

That's called "Guerilla Capitalism" Chippa. I actually have a book by that title, authored by "Adam Cash".

If every city/town in the country eliminated just one job that was specially created for someone who held a sign for the winning mayor/town manager, how much money do you suppose would be left over?
Government is big business. Yet, if it actually were someone's business, it would have filed for bankruptcy by now.

The solution is always to cut music, art, and sports from the schools.

Whether you're a Democrat or Republican, you can't seriously believe that either guy who gets elected is going to improve the national deficit all by himself, or is going to personally round the troops up and lead them out of Iraq, can you?

That's why I hate politics. Only the names and the faces change.

and dog, you wouldnt be fkd, if you actually planned for it and made ajustments. take fiscal responsiblity for yourself. dont stick your hand out.

And yes, i have.

I've got mine, go fuck yourself

Damn straight. I can't save enough to cover my family and your pathetic existance.

seriously, a vote for obama is a vote to steal my shit.

almac77 dont you drive an escalade or something like that?

should you steal my shit to fund your escalade?

wasnt talking to you doggie.

i'll let that one go.

My point is that no matter who gets elected, someone is gonna have their hand in my pocket.

Well he IS a successful and attractive man.

What did I tell ya about the endless mud-flinging from now on?

My advice: stay away from all this negative shit, no matter who's side you're on.
It's only gonna darken your day, and you aren't gonna convert anybody to your side.
We've all made up out minds.

Let's vote, and whoever wins, lets stand behind our president and fix this country.

backwhenradiowasboss.com/siteb...

It's kinda scary that a grown, adult, professional would be so angry and hateful as to throw away a career...it's just downright childish.

and that goes for both parties.

CM, if it's the one off of 133 by 495, yeah, that's it. Less that a 10m commute.

"I can't comment on anything you say Al, mainly because, I never understand what you're saying. I'd have to ask a bunch of clarification questions before even attempting to comment on most anything you say"

Okay then, I'll clarify it for you. He's simply saying, "you're full of shit".

Hope this helps......:-)

my take: Government guaranteed health care would mean that the lower AND middle class would get equally crappy health care, and would have no effect on the wealthy, who would simply pay for additional supplementary private health care anyway. The most likely outcome would be similar to what has happened to education in the past 25 years: expensive and mediocre.

Just think, if the tax rates (Fed/State/etc.) were returned to the levels they were at in the 1960s, just about anyone who had a day job could afford to pay for top notch private health care, either on their own or as part of their work benefit package.

Anyone who thinks that Government-run health care will result in the BEST health care for the MOST people is crazy. Our government is only good at a few things: blowing stuff up, soaking the taxpayers, and spending the taxpayers' money. Beyond that, individual private solutions will ALWAYS outperform the government in addressing, and actually FIXING a problem.

Why do you think all of these loans and mortgages were pushed on people who truly had no business getting them? Uncle Sam thought it was a good idea to include these people in the American Dream of home ownership, and pushed that agenda on the lending institutions, who otherwise would never have pursued such loans. And here we are...thanks a frigging lot, US government wanks!

It's true. The way the system is designed now, if you qualify for free care, you can get the same treatment that anyone else would because it is not universal. I had some of the best neurosurgeons in the world working on me and right away. I didn't have to wait. I had waited long enough before I qualified for free care and could not wait any longer.

In countries with Nation Health programs such as Canada and the UK, people that need to see a specialist have to take a number and wait in-line. So it is not uncommon to see citizens from those countries purchasing health insurance—those that can afford it— that they can obtain prompt care from the doctors of their choice in the U.S.

what was the question again?

That was a pretty good translation Crazy Cat. Do me a favor, transcribe the lyrics to this song that I have to play at a wedding.
Thank you in advance.

youtube.com/watch?v=2mwh9z58i...

0/2 CM

Anyone who wants the federal government to run your health care system needs to have their head examined (if they have the insurance to do and it's covered...).

Big government can't run anything effectively. Please give me one example of something they did effectively. Sure they've had successes but generally if something is about to fail, they just throw more money at it...and not everything can be fixed with money.

Ask your average Canadian about socialized medicine. Few I've spoken to are fans of it.

The problem in this country is those who are paying for health care are also paying for the ininsured...millions of whom aren't even here legally. This drives up the costs.

As for all these Wall Street failures, please tell me where the Constitution allows our federal government to bail out a private company.

Sure they're all big bad capitalistic companies making all kinds of money and loving a hands off attitude of the government but when they fail they want a socialist system to bail them out. You can't have it both ways...or maybe you can today.

Either way, both parties are failing this country miserable. Vote Libertarian!

right now we're starting to see the dirty details of the scam, with the banks, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and the whole lot of rotten politicians who have nicely rigged the system to take care of themselves and their financial sector lobbyists, while the taxpayer gets put on the hook when the scheme blows up in everyone's face. Politicians on both sides of the aisle screwing up while the taxpayer picks up the tab.

How hypocritical is it of the D.C. politicians who go nuts when a Wall Street corporate exec gets a nice golden parachute after running a company into the ground, but now seem to be reluctant to have a full blown investigation as to how this all happened so the world can see who is at fault. Cover your ass politics at its worst.

remember, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, which is why i get really nervous when the government gets involved in any pet social project. It is only with strong government support and planning that we can get this kind of large-scale train wreck.

I will grant you that unchecked big business has a tendency to abuse and take advantage of their circumstance, but PUULLEASE, don't tell me that when the government gets involved, the same abuses don't happen. The only difference is that YOU and I are the stockholders when Uncle Sam messes up!

BTW, many believe that FDR's New Deal Social programs were ALSO used as political payoffs to states where his voting block was not very strong. There were many "never-ending train routes to nowhere" given as political favors. Also, many believe that all of FDR's government intervention actually helped DELAY the recovery from the Depression, rather than if it were left alone to recover on its own. Let's not forget the original spirit of Social Security and Welfare bears no resemblance to what they currently. Once again, good intentions gone awry on both counts.

Just got back from a business trip and really just have time to skim. Wow this thread has grown!I'll have to read it later on.

CM,How can you not understand what i'm saying when I'm quoting you? Duh!You understood enough to stick your nose in this thread,didn't you?.Never mind anyways.I'm not buying that piss poor reply to my elucid comment. Whateva! I find your not wanting to communicate with me offensive and childish.

I actually forget now where this discussion was going,but remember I was sort of moved by CC's stories of younger days.Gotta Go,I can't contribute to this right now,but I thought I had read some good ideas.

But seriously,

Almac said:
"You understood enough to stick your nose in this thread,didn't you?"

Your first post was the most clear and well thought out, well worded contribution you've made to this site. And although I disagree with its content, I commend your delivery.

However, it was Crazy Cat's complimentary words regarding Socialism that actually lured me into "sticking my nose in". It just surprised me because I've always considered him more of a Libertarian than a Socialist, that's all.

And again, it's not that I don't want to communicate with you, it's just that whenever I try, I fail. Hell, I don't even know what elucid means, so I take the blame, and promise to never stick my nose into your threads again.

Carl,

I think you'd better go back and read my posts again. I am not advocating socialism in and of itself. I said that a healthy system is a moderate or BALANCED one; that is, one that is both free enterprise with socialist-styled programs to pad it. Can you imagine our society today without things like unemployment insurance or workman's compensation? Those programs are expressions of socialism Carl.

Oh, and guess what? If it weren't for the state-sponsored medical insurance that kicked in at the eleventh hour in my time of need, I probably would have died 2-3 years ago. It's not universal or national health but tax funded and state-sponsored nonetheless. That is socialism in small doses. Enough to act as a net of sorts; to help when help is truly needed.

I think you've been reading too much Ayn Rand :-)

p.s. What Al meant by "elucid" probably was "elucidate" , which is to make lucid by explanation or analysis.

I understand fully what you are saying Crazy Cat. I still disagree though.

You said:
"Can you imagine our society today without things like unemployment insurance or workman's compensation? Those programs are expressions of socialism Carl."

Yes, I can. I know they are. I also know that those types of programs are a cancer. They start small but can not help but get bigger and bigger until everything is government run. That's the way they were designed. A government agency must grow or its workers will get laid off, and get pay cuts, so they will always grow.

A personal anecdote about ones experience with a socialist program that happened to work, although certainly heartwarming and effective in demonstrating how it can help, is a misleading piece of evidence. Perhaps if you (and I'm using "you" in the universal sense) were not taxed at such a high rate (all taxes included, on you, and those who supported you until you reached adulthood) to pay for the many socialist programs that have been multiplying since Roosevelt's "new deal", you would not have needed government welfare in the form of health care. I believe Socialism, in its incremental way has lead to the dependency that we have now, and is the reason you can't even imagine a world without those programs. I really still can imagine it.

Being just a little bit Socialistic is just like being a little bit pregnant.

My answer would obviously not be to tear it all down immediately. It must be torn down incrementally the way it began. At this point, it's still expanding, but some of us still think it's worth fighting for the country we believe the founding fathers envisioned. Free of Socialism.

In FDR's own correspondence, there is a classic letter to his son where in discussing his "New Deal" he mentions his one fear: (I'm paraphrasing, but it went something like this)
"my one fear is that we are creating a permanent underclass"

He sold out his core beliefs to gain the power that can only be gained by stealing from Peter to give to Paul.

Redistribution of Wealth is a faceless evil and the worst crime of all.

I forgot,

The captain takes points off for spelling

Yes Al :-))

I can't WAIT for this movie to come out!


youtube.com/watch?v=3cysgcofl...

Wow, I 'm guessing Zucker, or any actor in that film probably wasn't at that megabucks fundraiser Obama had in Cali the other night!

Same to you Crazy Cat. You always keep it on the level and respectful.

I actually went to bed last night thinking a lot about the whole Health Care situation and your point of view.

I wanted to make sure my position on the topic was crystal clear, because I TOO have taken advantage of free health care in MA. And believe me when I say, I didn't want to. Even offered to pay for the knee surgery, but would have needed some sort of installment plan, which they refused. They literally told me that it would have to be free or nothing! They simply weren't set up to give out knee surgery, and then be paid for it!!! I needed the surgery then, right away, so I let my fellow constituents foot the bill.

Survival is man's greatest drive. Our system, as it is now, exploits our natural will to survive, making unlikely pragmatists of even the most conservative of us.

Once we've figuratively dipped into the public trough, we then naturally feel beholden to it. Just like the gangster's wife who knows that her fur is stolen, but praises her husband for being such a great provider.

I don't come to these beliefs through greed, or a desire to not pitch in, I'm no robber baron. (understatement) I honestly feel that the free market, our Constitution, and our American generosity would always do a better job taking care of the sick than a Socialist bureaucracy.

I forgot, you can watch the whole film is sections on Youtube!

youtube.com/watch?v=bppjh-3gr...

Mummumumumum
yipyipyipyip

Get a job.

Get a job Sha na na na, sha na na na na
neK milf eht hctaW Watch the film Ken, (subliminal backward masking)
Sha na na na, sha na na na na,
nehtmos nrael thgim aY (Ya might learn somthen')
Sha na na na, sha na na na na,
Sha na na na, sha na na na na,
Yip yip yip yip yip yip yip yip
Mum mum mum mum mum mum

That looks interesting Tom, I will!

Excellent Tom! Thank you!!

"Hospitals are owned by the government and doctors are government employees". Perhaps they well should be, after all, is not health care a public service of sorts?

If you need to utilize what this state has to offer because you have no other alternative then you should IF you pay into the system...It is the losers that abuse the system that piss me off........Amongst others that have so much to say but nothing really to back it up......

P78, first of all, why should the statement that you quoted from Carl make him "feel like his head is exploding"?

"If you need to utilize what this state has to offer because you have no other alternative then you should IF you pay into the system"

P78, the irony of that statement is that, in most cases, the only way you can obtain that kind of aid from the state is either by NOT having paid into the system, or having paid very little. That is how person qualifies, by how little they've paid in taxes or by not having paid at all. How else do you think immigrants—illegal or otherwise— get to qualify? How a person with a substantial trust fund held in a lending institution could somehow wrangle his way around an audit to obtain such assistance is beyond me.

My next question is: Did you view any of those documentary films that were posted? They're very informative.

Bottom line: health care is a PUBLIC SERVICE that should be funded through taxation and provided to individuals free of charge.

All of us will become gravely ill at one time or another in our lives. It is ONLY at those moments when we truly feel the pressure and fear grip not only ourselves but our family and loved ones. Hopefully you'll be wealthy and secure enough to endure the monumental costs and challenges that usually confront people in such a predicament. Because these days, with the prodigious costs between health care and prescription drugs, even having insurance is simply not enough to cover the costs of copays and/or the services and pharmaceuticals that health plans deftly rationalize their way out of paying.