Berklee Schmerklee (From Craigslist)
dog writes:
Note: This does not reflect the opinion of Dog. It just some crap I found on craigslist..
*************
Reply to: comm-740633831@craigslist.org
Date: 2008-07-02, 4:27PM EDT
This may seem like a stupid rant. But I think there is a group of musicians that will agree with me.
I recently left my band. My replacement happens to be a Berklee grad. I went to see the guys play, I'm still friends with them, and took the opportunity to talk to the new guitar player to see how he was getting along with my buddies. He broke the Ice by asking me what my influences were. To which I replied: Hendrix, Page, Blackmore, Van Halen, Paul Gilbert, etc. I could see utter disgust in his face, and he interrupted me by saying "You know, rock players, some of them can play, but the real players are George Benson, Tal Farlow, that's where the real vibe comes from". He then proceeded to ask me what my experience with music was, my background. To which I proudly replied "Self taught, I have been playing for the last 24 years in bands, both covers and originals". His reply, "Man, I play jazz, plus I'm a Berklee grad".
Ok, I'll continue by saying that not all Berklee grads are assholes, like my buddy here. But This is not the first time that I encounter a "schooled" musician being a total jerk to other guitarists and being absolutely condescending. With all the people graduating Berklee every year, how come we don't see them dominating the music industry, if they are so good? I have seen many guitarists that have graduated that school and I have to say, I am totally unimpressed with their abilities. They all sound the same, you know, the "Berklee Sound", and I finally figured it out. Berkelee will teach you music, but will not give you the balls or the spirit to play rock and roll. I can safely and proudly say that, as far as Rock and Metal goes, I can do everything a Berklee grad does, and better. And there are scores of self taught musicians that can do the same.
Why do they go to school then? To be able to look down on people and treat them like crap, with complete disregard for fellow musicians and their experience? May be that's the reason that players that went to Berklee and became famous, only went to that school for a semester or two. I think that Berklee should ad another course to their curriculum. Ethics, along with humility. These guys seem to forget that the founder of that school was not even a full time musician, not even a schooled one.
I see now why some musicians, particularly in rock, refuse to play with Berklee grads.
*************
Reply to: comm-740633831@craigslist.org
Date: 2008-07-02, 4:27PM EDT
This may seem like a stupid rant. But I think there is a group of musicians that will agree with me.
I recently left my band. My replacement happens to be a Berklee grad. I went to see the guys play, I'm still friends with them, and took the opportunity to talk to the new guitar player to see how he was getting along with my buddies. He broke the Ice by asking me what my influences were. To which I replied: Hendrix, Page, Blackmore, Van Halen, Paul Gilbert, etc. I could see utter disgust in his face, and he interrupted me by saying "You know, rock players, some of them can play, but the real players are George Benson, Tal Farlow, that's where the real vibe comes from". He then proceeded to ask me what my experience with music was, my background. To which I proudly replied "Self taught, I have been playing for the last 24 years in bands, both covers and originals". His reply, "Man, I play jazz, plus I'm a Berklee grad".
Ok, I'll continue by saying that not all Berklee grads are assholes, like my buddy here. But This is not the first time that I encounter a "schooled" musician being a total jerk to other guitarists and being absolutely condescending. With all the people graduating Berklee every year, how come we don't see them dominating the music industry, if they are so good? I have seen many guitarists that have graduated that school and I have to say, I am totally unimpressed with their abilities. They all sound the same, you know, the "Berklee Sound", and I finally figured it out. Berkelee will teach you music, but will not give you the balls or the spirit to play rock and roll. I can safely and proudly say that, as far as Rock and Metal goes, I can do everything a Berklee grad does, and better. And there are scores of self taught musicians that can do the same.
Why do they go to school then? To be able to look down on people and treat them like crap, with complete disregard for fellow musicians and their experience? May be that's the reason that players that went to Berklee and became famous, only went to that school for a semester or two. I think that Berklee should ad another course to their curriculum. Ethics, along with humility. These guys seem to forget that the founder of that school was not even a full time musician, not even a schooled one.
I see now why some musicians, particularly in rock, refuse to play with Berklee grads.
7/3/2008 7:51:26 AM
JimZaroulis writes:
I was cruising CraigsList last night and noticed that post and all the replies. I didn't have the urge to see what it was all about because it is exactly what I thought it was going to be. Just another a-hole.
7/3/2008 7:55:51 AM
Kennium writes:
I totally disagree.
I've worked with many Berklee guys who were great, really great,
and also some that were exactly as that guy described it...Guys who insisted in injecting bee-bop licks into rock songs and played all sorts of crap that didn't fit, refusing to learn the songs correctly, improvising their way through each gig.
A cover gig and a jazz gig are 2 different things, but they thought they were above that, and some of these guys come out thinking their shit has no odor.
I've worked with many Berklee guys who were great, really great,
and also some that were exactly as that guy described it...Guys who insisted in injecting bee-bop licks into rock songs and played all sorts of crap that didn't fit, refusing to learn the songs correctly, improvising their way through each gig.
A cover gig and a jazz gig are 2 different things, but they thought they were above that, and some of these guys come out thinking their shit has no odor.
7/3/2008 8:05:47 AM
Hundred $$ Demo writes:
I find it, more often than not, that the attitude comes from those who didn't go to Berklee than those who did.
You say you went there and they recoil in horror that somehow you're an elitist goose-stepping facist pig just cause you managed to go.
There are just as many a-holes who didn't go to Berklee as there are who did.
I had this conversation once:
dude: You like Jimmy Page?
Me: No, don't really get into him
dude: Probably cause you went to Berklee. You Berklee guys always shit on rock players
Me: No, I didn't like Page before I went there, and when I *was* there, I had hair to my freakin shoulders, played a loud obnoxious amp and didn't get into a lot of ensembles cause I *was* a rock player at that school.
dude: So why don't you like Page?
Like he couldn't b3elieve I just didn't dig Jimmy Page. I'll never forget it, and that was my sophmore year at the school.
Berklee is what you make of it. If you go in a decent person, you come out a decent person. If you go in an a-hole, you come out an a-hole. It's not like there's a class in Elitism, like Ear Training, Solfege, Composition or a woodwinds class.
You say you went there and they recoil in horror that somehow you're an elitist goose-stepping facist pig just cause you managed to go.
There are just as many a-holes who didn't go to Berklee as there are who did.
I had this conversation once:
dude: You like Jimmy Page?
Me: No, don't really get into him
dude: Probably cause you went to Berklee. You Berklee guys always shit on rock players
Me: No, I didn't like Page before I went there, and when I *was* there, I had hair to my freakin shoulders, played a loud obnoxious amp and didn't get into a lot of ensembles cause I *was* a rock player at that school.
dude: So why don't you like Page?
Like he couldn't b3elieve I just didn't dig Jimmy Page. I'll never forget it, and that was my sophmore year at the school.
Berklee is what you make of it. If you go in a decent person, you come out a decent person. If you go in an a-hole, you come out an a-hole. It's not like there's a class in Elitism, like Ear Training, Solfege, Composition or a woodwinds class.
7/3/2008 8:40:48 AM
swanee writes:
There are trust fund babies who go to BC, major in business and have jobs waiting for them in fortune 500 companies owned by friends of their parents and have a sense of entitlism that makes me ashamed to part of the institution.
Then there are kids who go to BC on scholarships and student loans, build homes in Appalachia on Spring break instead of going to Cancun, major in education and teach at inner city public schools for a whopping 21K a year to start.
"If you go in a decent person, you come out a decent person. If you go in an a-hole, you come out an a-hole"
right on Marc.
Then there are kids who go to BC on scholarships and student loans, build homes in Appalachia on Spring break instead of going to Cancun, major in education and teach at inner city public schools for a whopping 21K a year to start.
"If you go in a decent person, you come out a decent person. If you go in an a-hole, you come out an a-hole"
right on Marc.
7/3/2008 8:47:44 AM
chippa writes:
I went to Berkelee
I went there and took a huge sh*t in the urinal and then blamed it on the French foreign exchange student
I went there and took a huge sh*t in the urinal and then blamed it on the French foreign exchange student
7/3/2008 8:54:34 AM
LAST LAUGH writes:
In my experience the single most thing Berkelee players lack is soul. They almost play like robots and are so stuck on "tecnique" that they lose all feel for whatever type of song they're trying to play. I've played with Yngwie shredders who can solo like there's no tomorrow but can't play they rythym to (insert cheesey 3 chord GCD riff here) to save their life. I've also played with guys who know all the theory in the world and can't apply that theory. 1 guy was playing with actually played a blues solo in one of those silly mixolydian or crazy modes. I was like "hey jerkoff, have you ever heard of Clapton? Yeah? Good, now go fucking listen to him for a month and stop being a douchnozzle." Ridiculous.
On the other hand, my current guitarist now is a Berkelee grad and was a shredder going in and now is all about tone, feel, soul and texture. He's not one of those guys who quotes music theory and jerks off about it all day long. He just plays. God bless him.
If you spend more time talking about music than actually playing it you're a jerkoff and your hands should be steamrolled. Die in a greasefire...slowly. TYVM
On the other hand, my current guitarist now is a Berkelee grad and was a shredder going in and now is all about tone, feel, soul and texture. He's not one of those guys who quotes music theory and jerks off about it all day long. He just plays. God bless him.
If you spend more time talking about music than actually playing it you're a jerkoff and your hands should be steamrolled. Die in a greasefire...slowly. TYVM
7/3/2008 9:09:05 AM
Mike Crutcher writes:
I've met just as many non-Berklee players that refuse to rehearse as those who went. The other thing is that one can say the same thing about any music school alumni. Usually these players have worked more on formal ear training and can "wing it" a little more than the average player. I find that the majority of people who have issues with "Berklees" are fairly ignorant and don't like the explanation of what kind of groove their looking for or why it might be easier to consider the "change at the IV chord" as opposed to "we play this chord just after I sing the word xxxx".
The main thing that schooled musicians get from school is how to recognize and organize different factions of music. A vast portion of my knowledge has come to me post-schooling, but my knowledge is very influenced by learning to take a step back and see the big picture. I always say, it's like learning to speak. You can do it quite well without learning to read; in fact, we learn to speak quite a bit before we learn to read. However, we hone our speaking and communication abilities more with knowedge of sentence structure, parts of speech, and overall vocabulary. It is very difficult to have a sizable vocabulary if you can't write it down and/or see it as well as hear it. It's a lot easier to play through a chord progression if I have a better idea *what* is going on throughout the progression. I certainly don't think of that stuff when I'm actually improvising, but I can hear it more completely because I focused on it more intently when I learned it, rather than reinventing the wheel every time I hear chords being played.
For example, when learning a Meters tune that has a bar of 3/4 in it, our drummer kept playing through the missing beat and then would find the meter(so to speak) turned around. He would flawlessly make up for it and jump back into the correct groove, but it was far easier for me to say to him, "you know there's a bar of 3 in there, right?" than it was for us to wait until he caught on. The bassplayer said, "no, no, don't worry about that sh*t, just jump right back on the 1 right *here*." That thinking worked for him, but it was quicker for the drummer to be on board with a simple explanation from me. First, it saved time in explanation; no reinventing the wheel or explanation of the groove. Second, it was far easier for me to identify the 3/4 bar in the first place, having organized that type of stuff in my head years earlier. Rather than saying, "after this lick, we jump in early", I could identify that there was a missing beat, and there's a measure of 3/4 in there. Simple; move on and work on playing the groove as a band rather than each guy with his nose in his own work trying to figure his part out and not listening to the other instruments and how they relate to his part.
Knowledge is *never* a bad thing. The problem is people's attitude about their knowledge, and a close 2nd problem is people's attitude about *other* people's knowledge. A good portion of the time, when someone is receiving information that they have not previously deemed necessary, they don't understand it, and if they don't understand it on the spot, they reject it. I see this all the time when I'm teaching, except that students are there to learn things that they don't know, so they're usually more receptive to the unknown.
It's always a blast when I'm working with a group on vocal harmonies, and rather than giving me second to figure out the chord(s) that we're singing over and defining the best notes and assigning the specified notes, someone decides, "let's just keep singing through it until we get it". To me, this is like a group of people needing to get a specific message across and deciding to just through out random words until sentences begin to form, and those sentences begin to say what we want. It's like the "Seinfeld" episode, regarding word association tests:
"George: Potato.
Jerry: Tuberculosis.
George: Blanket.
Jerry: Leroy.
George: Grass.
Jerry: Tuberculosis."
People who have spent a majority of their life playing music hate being given logic to explain what they've been doing for years. Don't blame Berklee; blame ignorance.
The main thing that schooled musicians get from school is how to recognize and organize different factions of music. A vast portion of my knowledge has come to me post-schooling, but my knowledge is very influenced by learning to take a step back and see the big picture. I always say, it's like learning to speak. You can do it quite well without learning to read; in fact, we learn to speak quite a bit before we learn to read. However, we hone our speaking and communication abilities more with knowedge of sentence structure, parts of speech, and overall vocabulary. It is very difficult to have a sizable vocabulary if you can't write it down and/or see it as well as hear it. It's a lot easier to play through a chord progression if I have a better idea *what* is going on throughout the progression. I certainly don't think of that stuff when I'm actually improvising, but I can hear it more completely because I focused on it more intently when I learned it, rather than reinventing the wheel every time I hear chords being played.
For example, when learning a Meters tune that has a bar of 3/4 in it, our drummer kept playing through the missing beat and then would find the meter(so to speak) turned around. He would flawlessly make up for it and jump back into the correct groove, but it was far easier for me to say to him, "you know there's a bar of 3 in there, right?" than it was for us to wait until he caught on. The bassplayer said, "no, no, don't worry about that sh*t, just jump right back on the 1 right *here*." That thinking worked for him, but it was quicker for the drummer to be on board with a simple explanation from me. First, it saved time in explanation; no reinventing the wheel or explanation of the groove. Second, it was far easier for me to identify the 3/4 bar in the first place, having organized that type of stuff in my head years earlier. Rather than saying, "after this lick, we jump in early", I could identify that there was a missing beat, and there's a measure of 3/4 in there. Simple; move on and work on playing the groove as a band rather than each guy with his nose in his own work trying to figure his part out and not listening to the other instruments and how they relate to his part.
Knowledge is *never* a bad thing. The problem is people's attitude about their knowledge, and a close 2nd problem is people's attitude about *other* people's knowledge. A good portion of the time, when someone is receiving information that they have not previously deemed necessary, they don't understand it, and if they don't understand it on the spot, they reject it. I see this all the time when I'm teaching, except that students are there to learn things that they don't know, so they're usually more receptive to the unknown.
It's always a blast when I'm working with a group on vocal harmonies, and rather than giving me second to figure out the chord(s) that we're singing over and defining the best notes and assigning the specified notes, someone decides, "let's just keep singing through it until we get it". To me, this is like a group of people needing to get a specific message across and deciding to just through out random words until sentences begin to form, and those sentences begin to say what we want. It's like the "Seinfeld" episode, regarding word association tests:
"George: Potato.
Jerry: Tuberculosis.
George: Blanket.
Jerry: Leroy.
George: Grass.
Jerry: Tuberculosis."
People who have spent a majority of their life playing music hate being given logic to explain what they've been doing for years. Don't blame Berklee; blame ignorance.
7/3/2008 9:35:25 AM
Mike Crutcher writes:
I love this reply on Craig's List; brilliant:
"I went to Berklee in mid 80’s—but so what? I’ve been in cover and original bands ever since. I’ve played with self-taught and trained musicians and have found the good and bad in both.
Berklee doesn’t make one an asshole just like being self-taught musician doesn’t make one humble. I know plenty of self-taught guys who think their music is the next thing since sliced bread and plenty of trained musicians who realize that “the more you know, the more you realize how much you still have to learn.”
What I can say regarding the OP in particular is that there was a moment in time, back when Berklee was just a school that it was replete with amazing musicians, but then it became about the money, got accredited and it changed. I was there during this switchover.
The people that watered down the school---and it’s reputation—were all these self-taught garage rocker types from L.A. that learned how to play guitar on their new Ibanez’ by reading tabs and tapping solos—the faster the better. Gone was tone, inflection, feeling, modes, knowledge of phrasing, knowing how to lay back—be a part of an ensemble, etc. and in its place was 30 effects pedals and 10 ft. rack mounts all trying to disguise a lack of technique and talent by becoming the next Metallica.
Berklee doesn’t make you a great musician, but one story I can attest to—my band was playing a gig in Faneuil Hall and a bride-to-be wanted to get up on stage and sing, “Tempted” by Squeeze (strange I know…). Well, problem is that no one in the band knew the song except the keyboard player, but we were all Berklee players so he turned off his mike from the mains so that it only came out the monitors and called out the changes (one! six minor nine! five eleven! etc…). We nailed the song without ever rehearsing—live—and we make our employers very happy.
Now does that mean anything? I don’t know, but even some of the self-taught musicians that I have a great amount of respect for wouldn’t have been able to pull that off live on the spot. There are just some things that the knowledge of modes, theory and arranging bring to the table and that—if anything—is the advantage. But in no way excuses being an asshole about it. " boston.craigslist.org/gbs/muc/...
"I went to Berklee in mid 80’s—but so what? I’ve been in cover and original bands ever since. I’ve played with self-taught and trained musicians and have found the good and bad in both.
Berklee doesn’t make one an asshole just like being self-taught musician doesn’t make one humble. I know plenty of self-taught guys who think their music is the next thing since sliced bread and plenty of trained musicians who realize that “the more you know, the more you realize how much you still have to learn.”
What I can say regarding the OP in particular is that there was a moment in time, back when Berklee was just a school that it was replete with amazing musicians, but then it became about the money, got accredited and it changed. I was there during this switchover.
The people that watered down the school---and it’s reputation—were all these self-taught garage rocker types from L.A. that learned how to play guitar on their new Ibanez’ by reading tabs and tapping solos—the faster the better. Gone was tone, inflection, feeling, modes, knowledge of phrasing, knowing how to lay back—be a part of an ensemble, etc. and in its place was 30 effects pedals and 10 ft. rack mounts all trying to disguise a lack of technique and talent by becoming the next Metallica.
Berklee doesn’t make you a great musician, but one story I can attest to—my band was playing a gig in Faneuil Hall and a bride-to-be wanted to get up on stage and sing, “Tempted” by Squeeze (strange I know…). Well, problem is that no one in the band knew the song except the keyboard player, but we were all Berklee players so he turned off his mike from the mains so that it only came out the monitors and called out the changes (one! six minor nine! five eleven! etc…). We nailed the song without ever rehearsing—live—and we make our employers very happy.
Now does that mean anything? I don’t know, but even some of the self-taught musicians that I have a great amount of respect for wouldn’t have been able to pull that off live on the spot. There are just some things that the knowledge of modes, theory and arranging bring to the table and that—if anything—is the advantage. But in no way excuses being an asshole about it. " boston.craigslist.org/gbs/muc/...
7/3/2008 9:45:24 AM
JimZaroulis writes:
When it comes to music, I don't believe there is such thing as a "Berklee guy" or a "NEC guy" or a "U-Lowell guy".
It's to stupid! You can't tell how where someone went to school by how they play! If you can, you should consider getting on a talk show and sharing it with the world.
Saying someone did a gig with "Berklee guys" or "Conservatory guys" makes absolutely no point as far as the music goes.
You know how many times I hear "So did you go to Berklee?" I actually wish I did, but I didn't. If I did a solo gig with alot of classical music I get "So, are you conservatory educated?"
Who gives a flying f*ck??
It's to stupid! You can't tell how where someone went to school by how they play! If you can, you should consider getting on a talk show and sharing it with the world.
Saying someone did a gig with "Berklee guys" or "Conservatory guys" makes absolutely no point as far as the music goes.
You know how many times I hear "So did you go to Berklee?" I actually wish I did, but I didn't. If I did a solo gig with alot of classical music I get "So, are you conservatory educated?"
Who gives a flying f*ck??
7/3/2008 9:46:37 AM
ThatGuy writes:
Assh@les are assh@les... no matter where they go to school - or even if they don't.
I Think it's coincidence. I know plenty of non-schooled musicians that will act the same as the person described in the original CL posting. I also know some Berkley guys that are down to earth, humble and REALLY great players.
There's some sort of mythical stigma that follows Berkley grads that they are somehow these technical, shallow, soul-less players that feel self-entitled.
I don't know if it's propagated by the insecurities of those that never went to school and somehow "feel" inferior and seem to project those traits onto Berkley grads - just to feel better about themselves... (?) I dunno...
But I don't see the institution being the CAUSE of anyone being a dick... I'm pretty sure they were a dick BEFORE going to Berkley... giving the impression that their personality shortcomings are a byproduct of going there.
I highly doubt it. (IMHO)
I Think it's coincidence. I know plenty of non-schooled musicians that will act the same as the person described in the original CL posting. I also know some Berkley guys that are down to earth, humble and REALLY great players.
There's some sort of mythical stigma that follows Berkley grads that they are somehow these technical, shallow, soul-less players that feel self-entitled.
I don't know if it's propagated by the insecurities of those that never went to school and somehow "feel" inferior and seem to project those traits onto Berkley grads - just to feel better about themselves... (?) I dunno...
But I don't see the institution being the CAUSE of anyone being a dick... I'm pretty sure they were a dick BEFORE going to Berkley... giving the impression that their personality shortcomings are a byproduct of going there.
I highly doubt it. (IMHO)
7/3/2008 9:47:27 AM
LAST LAUGH writes:
I agree Mike but there are those who can teach and those who can do. In music I'd rather be a do'er and play with do'ers than listen to a guy toot his horn about theory. I agree with the save time aspect when everyone understands it but for me...I'm a guy who knows shit about measures and bars (well, I know more about bars than most but that's another discussion) but I can tell anyone what needs to be done in my own way. It's like a painter who is great but has no idea how he gets there he just does and the teacher saying "you need to explain yourself" Why? It's art. Fuck it. You like the painting? Cool. That's all that needs to be said. You can see the colors and the shapes? perfect.
7/3/2008 9:52:38 AM
milhouse writes:
I love the berklee trained musicians that tell me how thier crappiest student farts more musically than i will ever play guitar without ever having heard me play then proceed to tell the world how humble and great they are at the same time.
7/3/2008 9:54:41 AM
milhouse writes:
i reality i wish i had a chance to really dedicate my self to deeper studies of music, theory, and to mastering the guitar... i really do value that and i always feel like the more i know, the less i know.
I hate playing through muscle memory. i want to use my brain.
I hate playing through muscle memory. i want to use my brain.
7/3/2008 9:56:30 AM
Mike Crutcher writes:
However, the painter analogy is flawed, because a painter doesn't have to interact with other painters in real time and have them understand what he/she is doing. There certainly are cases in which the music thrives due to the player not knowing nor understanding what they are playing over and improvising totally by ear. However, that music is fairly rare and fairly experimental. Telling someone what needs to be done in one's own way is extremely limited. Some people just aren't going to interpret "I need this to sound more... purple" differently than others. However, "two measures of a polka groove, followed by a stop on beat one" is far more universal and defies misinterpretation.
There's a very thin line between art and bullshit. Just because it comes out of someone's head doesn't mean that it's art. Sometimes one's output is feces. It's helpful to be able to categorize one's own work as such.
There's a very thin line between art and bullshit. Just because it comes out of someone's head doesn't mean that it's art. Sometimes one's output is feces. It's helpful to be able to categorize one's own work as such.
7/3/2008 10:28:00 AM
Morganic writes:
I went to Berklee for two years back in the mid-70's, and there were first year students who were TOTAL jazz snobs the day they arrived. They'd turn their noses up at anything remotely rock-influenced. But, there were some great rockers there too.
Berklee was and is a trade school. They teach you the fundamentals and try to help you develop your own skills, but not everyone is meant to be a musician. A few years after I left and was gigging we used to notice certain bands that we knew were fresh out of Berklee. They played flawlessly, but without much feeling. We used to joke that "the Berklee hasn't worn off 'em yet."
Any kind of rigorous training will take a while to "wear off." My cousin came back from Viet Nam in 1973 and it took about six months before he stopped talking "funny" and using military-speak. It's the same thing with a lot of students. some people just seem to get so immersed in it that it becomes their entire focus.
Berklee was and is a trade school. They teach you the fundamentals and try to help you develop your own skills, but not everyone is meant to be a musician. A few years after I left and was gigging we used to notice certain bands that we knew were fresh out of Berklee. They played flawlessly, but without much feeling. We used to joke that "the Berklee hasn't worn off 'em yet."
Any kind of rigorous training will take a while to "wear off." My cousin came back from Viet Nam in 1973 and it took about six months before he stopped talking "funny" and using military-speak. It's the same thing with a lot of students. some people just seem to get so immersed in it that it becomes their entire focus.
7/3/2008 10:51:22 AM
Mike Crutcher writes:
On the other hand, I know a guy who's an okay player (guitar and harmonica) who has something to say about *everyone* and *anyone* who plays better than him. He'll say "this guy is a great bassplayer, but he's too busy". "That guy has great guitar chops, but he sounds too sterile". "He's got great technique on the harp, but he's not doing anything I can't do..." (this, of course, would be met with "then why aren't you doing it?")
I find that there's a lot of criticism for that which we don't understand. It was from going to music school that I began to understand that it's okay to like music that I don't understand. It was actually switching between schools that made me understand that there are other types of music that are also great, and that complex isn't necessarily better, as I went from jazz snobs to classical snobs. I encountered jazz snobs who looked down on rock, then classical snobs who looked down on jazz, and then rock snobs who looked down on both, I realized that logically, this can't make sense. It's all context, which is the main logical point that counters the "Berklee Schmerklee" attitude.
I find that there's a lot of criticism for that which we don't understand. It was from going to music school that I began to understand that it's okay to like music that I don't understand. It was actually switching between schools that made me understand that there are other types of music that are also great, and that complex isn't necessarily better, as I went from jazz snobs to classical snobs. I encountered jazz snobs who looked down on rock, then classical snobs who looked down on jazz, and then rock snobs who looked down on both, I realized that logically, this can't make sense. It's all context, which is the main logical point that counters the "Berklee Schmerklee" attitude.
7/3/2008 11:18:09 AM
Mike Crutcher writes:
All of them. Any music I'm listening to is far, far superior to anything I'm not currently listening to.
7/3/2008 11:36:03 AM
Mike Valeras writes:
The dude in that story is just an A-hole! There's A-holes that graduate from from business school and medical schools as well. Berklee's got nothing to do with it. This thread has entered the realm of becoming one of those schooled vs. self-taught threads.
eh....
eh....
7/3/2008 11:49:21 AM
CrazyCat writes:
Most of my best experiences in music have been with schooled musicians; but this is only because of my interests in jazz, symphonic, and improvisational music.
What Mike Valeras just said though sums it up well.
What Mike Valeras just said though sums it up well.
7/3/2008 11:57:27 AM
Hundred $$ Demo writes:
I went to Berklee and all I got was an a-hole rep and rhythm guitar chops.
Works for me. :-)
Works for me. :-)
7/3/2008 12:18:49 PM
Mike Crutcher writes:
Did you hear about the Berklee student who didn't finish school, so he had to settle for being a rhythm guitarist?
7/3/2008 12:36:06 PM
JimZaroulis writes:
Stunt, that was pretty damn funny!
Please don't have this thread turn into a self taught vs. schooled musician thread!
Please don't have this thread turn into a self taught vs. schooled musician thread!
7/3/2008 12:36:11 PM
Ronin writes:
This type of thing applies in all walks of life.
In the Air Force, we can have two outstanding fighter pilots, one an Air Force Academy grad and the other ROTC. Some Academy grads will look down on the ROTC grad even though he is just as good a pilot, officer and human being.
It all boils down to the character of the individual. Nothing more, nothing less.
In the Air Force, we can have two outstanding fighter pilots, one an Air Force Academy grad and the other ROTC. Some Academy grads will look down on the ROTC grad even though he is just as good a pilot, officer and human being.
It all boils down to the character of the individual. Nothing more, nothing less.
7/3/2008 1:29:09 PM
Juice writes:
I think the only stigma Berkely grads get are just because they wear it like some kind of badge of authority.
Not to say every does but when I've herd people refer to Berkley Grads they talk about it as if that person is an authority in everything about music including taste. Then any conversation you have with that person (who only knows the Berkley Grad) thinks you can't possibly know what you are talking about because they've been told otherwise.
I don't give the grads all the blame because your suppose to brag about yourself in such an industry.
Not to say every does but when I've herd people refer to Berkley Grads they talk about it as if that person is an authority in everything about music including taste. Then any conversation you have with that person (who only knows the Berkley Grad) thinks you can't possibly know what you are talking about because they've been told otherwise.
I don't give the grads all the blame because your suppose to brag about yourself in such an industry.
7/3/2008 2:19:07 PM
Mike Crutcher writes:
I think that's a bunch of crap. If people ask where I went to school, should I lie and say that I'm self-taught? Would that make me more "real"? If you go to an Ivy-League school, do you hide your diploma? Screw that. Instead of clowning around in wanna-bee rockstar bands that are waiting for David Geffen to show up at their garageband practice and sign them for a multi-million dollar contract, I chose to put my nose to the grindstone and work my ass off, without bar audiences cheering me on because I could pull of the "Smoke On The Water" riff. In order to get through any music school, regardless whether it's Berklee or otherwise, one has to f*cking play in a multitude of settings, i.e. jazz groups, rock groups, pit orchestras, big bands, etc., and do it in front of some of most bad-ass musicians on the planet as your judges, playing material that is about as challenging as music is ever going to get, and make it convincing. For some of us, that meant working at night, doing homework at scarce gigs, so that we can pay rent, and still keep up the schoolwork. You're damn right I'm going to be proud of the fact that I went to music school, Berklee, whatever; I worked my ass off. However, I have yet to hear anyone exclaim, "no, that guy's opinion is wrong. *I* went to Berklee, and this is how it *really* is..." In fact, I usually hear fellow Berklee alumni say, "I wish they had laid off the modes and stuff, and given us more of what we need in the real world."
It's pretty well known that dropping a name of a music school isn't going to get you a gig, whether it be a sound engineer, a playing gig, a music therapist, etc. If I speak with any kind of authority about music, it's because I've been studying it, including playing it, for well over 20 years. Picture Mike Stern, Al DiMeola, Delfeayo Marsalis, John Scofield, Robert Benson (George's son), Joe Mardin, Victor Bailey, Quincy Jones, Tracy Bonham, Will Calhoun, Terri Lyne Carrington, Vinnie Colaiuta, Kenwood Dennard, Donald Fagen, Steve Smith, or Abe Laboriel saying, "well, *I* went to Berklee, and *this* is how *we* do things..."
Puh-leeze. Most people that I've talked to that have issues with Berklee students wouldn't know one if they tripped over him.
It's pretty well known that dropping a name of a music school isn't going to get you a gig, whether it be a sound engineer, a playing gig, a music therapist, etc. If I speak with any kind of authority about music, it's because I've been studying it, including playing it, for well over 20 years. Picture Mike Stern, Al DiMeola, Delfeayo Marsalis, John Scofield, Robert Benson (George's son), Joe Mardin, Victor Bailey, Quincy Jones, Tracy Bonham, Will Calhoun, Terri Lyne Carrington, Vinnie Colaiuta, Kenwood Dennard, Donald Fagen, Steve Smith, or Abe Laboriel saying, "well, *I* went to Berklee, and *this* is how *we* do things..."
Puh-leeze. Most people that I've talked to that have issues with Berklee students wouldn't know one if they tripped over him.
7/3/2008 3:20:26 PM
Mike Crutcher writes:
"They wear it like some kind of badge of authority". That's what I'm referring to. As if anyone who got their degree in music should hide their face.
7/3/2008 3:48:13 PM
BarbieK writes:
Or, you could just have a kickass time making people happy by playing the Smoke on the Water riff, and know that that's enough for you to feel fullfilled. To each his own, in every aspect of life.
But what the f*ck do I know.
But what the f*ck do I know.
7/3/2008 4:04:23 PM
Ronin writes:
I wouldn't know most Berklee grads because none are working as musicians! Bwahhaaaaaa
7/3/2008 4:14:57 PM
milhouse writes:
I think using your diploma and name checking your school is cool when you are just getting out of school.
After that, you should use your W-2.
I mean, how seriously am i supposed to take where somebody was 10 or more years ago?
Professionals use school references for networking more so than to put out their credentials. Credenitals come with a paycheck.
After that, you should use your W-2.
I mean, how seriously am i supposed to take where somebody was 10 or more years ago?
Professionals use school references for networking more so than to put out their credentials. Credenitals come with a paycheck.
7/3/2008 4:21:00 PM
dog writes:
Juice, I'm sure some Berklee Alumni wear their pedigree on their sleeve, just like in lots of other professions. I'm equally sure that the majority do not and their pedigree wouldn't even come up unless it came up in other conversation.
7/3/2008 4:24:33 PM
solvocals writes:
As with anything, it depends on the person. I've got a group of friends, all bandmates that are Berkley grads and they're all real cool. BUT, I've also known my share of those tha are complete asses about it.
I did a BOTB once and we beat out a group from Berkley. They were appalled that they were beat by us, I thought it was great. :- D
I did a BOTB once and we beat out a group from Berkley. They were appalled that they were beat by us, I thought it was great. :- D
7/3/2008 5:03:41 PM
milhouse writes:
Berklee bands are all aholes for sure, but the worst is being in a all-Elks band - those elks guys are super elits snobs
7/3/2008 5:16:29 PM
milhouse writes:
i dunno, throwing around your degree is pretty fkn weak.
sheepskin by itself lends no authority.
sheepskin by itself lends no authority.
7/3/2008 5:24:09 PM
milhouse writes:
i take that back.
if you have a good degree you can pretty much suck and still be awesome. as long as you throw it in people's face.
if you have a good degree you can pretty much suck and still be awesome. as long as you throw it in people's face.
7/3/2008 5:37:04 PM
CrazyCat writes:
In a sense, you are right Mil.
Take a couple of guys like Lennon and McCartney. They certainly didn't need something in the way of "music school" to pen the masterpieces they gave to the world; yet, having a guy like George Martin (Guildhall School of Music and Drama) on their team to help put their material together certainly didn't hurt them.
One the other hand, take a guy like my brother-in-law with his M.B.A. from Yale. Professionally, it is contingent upon him to "throw his sheepskin around" and deservedly so. He's now a corporate V.P. earning more than most of us will ever see in our lifetime and he isn't even 40 yet.
Then again, take a guy that has great acumen in some profession but no degree that one would ordinarily need educational credentials to advance in. More often than not, that person would be excluded as a serious prospective candidate for the job. Yet, we all know that having a college degree does not necessarily automatically bestow upon a person
ingenuity and talent.
So it really is a mixed bag of sorts.
Take a couple of guys like Lennon and McCartney. They certainly didn't need something in the way of "music school" to pen the masterpieces they gave to the world; yet, having a guy like George Martin (Guildhall School of Music and Drama) on their team to help put their material together certainly didn't hurt them.
One the other hand, take a guy like my brother-in-law with his M.B.A. from Yale. Professionally, it is contingent upon him to "throw his sheepskin around" and deservedly so. He's now a corporate V.P. earning more than most of us will ever see in our lifetime and he isn't even 40 yet.
Then again, take a guy that has great acumen in some profession but no degree that one would ordinarily need educational credentials to advance in. More often than not, that person would be excluded as a serious prospective candidate for the job. Yet, we all know that having a college degree does not necessarily automatically bestow upon a person
ingenuity and talent.
So it really is a mixed bag of sorts.
7/3/2008 6:05:18 PM
milhouse writes:
ah, but the yale MBA isnt worth as much for 'what you know' as it is for 'who you know'.
know what i mean, old boy?
know what i mean, old boy?
7/3/2008 6:10:11 PM
CrazyCat writes:
One more thing for the record Mil.
You have a degree in economics( is it?) from B.C. While that may not have anything to do with music, having a degree from a renowned institution of learning like that certainly isn't hurting you either.
I'd wager that there isn't one person here on this board that doesn't harbor some measure of respect for that whether openly or privately. I know I have respect for you because of it.
Why wouldn't that same dynamic hold for a person who has matriculated through some course of study at a music school?
You have a degree in economics( is it?) from B.C. While that may not have anything to do with music, having a degree from a renowned institution of learning like that certainly isn't hurting you either.
I'd wager that there isn't one person here on this board that doesn't harbor some measure of respect for that whether openly or privately. I know I have respect for you because of it.
Why wouldn't that same dynamic hold for a person who has matriculated through some course of study at a music school?
7/3/2008 6:15:55 PM
CrazyCat writes:
Yes, there is some of that too. It seems part and parcel of the educational package; of what going through a school like that can do for you.
7/3/2008 6:17:55 PM
milhouse writes:
degree in geology too. don't ever forget that when i tell you what key sweet home alabama is in.
7/3/2008 6:18:37 PM
BarbieK writes:
Milhouse is an expert in how fast rocks fall and stuff like that. And then he guesses how much it will cost to fix the things they fall on.
7/3/2008 6:21:07 PM
CrazyCat writes:
Music school can do that for a person as well. Big time! Buddy Rich used to routinely scout Berklee for musicians in his band!
I know because my cousin was married to Jimmy Mosher, who played alto sax in his big band and was also the chairman of the reed department there during the 70s'.
I know because my cousin was married to Jimmy Mosher, who played alto sax in his big band and was also the chairman of the reed department there during the 70s'.
7/3/2008 6:23:28 PM
milhouse writes:
i appreciate the respect crazy cat - but i guess at the end of the day, i know douchbags and morons that have Phds from highighly esteemed programs, and i know brilliant guys that never finnshed college.
I learned more about how to think than anything else - i didn't learn a trade. haveing some buinsess and some science has served me well.
Think of it as training a boxer. a good college puts you in great physical shape. quick, strong, endurance, etc. you get to know good trainers, managers and other fighters.
Working is where you learn to box. you get bloodied. you bloody some people. you are in the ring. you only have your record to stand by. nobody cares how many miles you ran, how hard you hit the heavy back, what you can bench.
a degree is a steping stone, a means to an end, and a part of a journey but by no means the destination imho.
I learned more about how to think than anything else - i didn't learn a trade. haveing some buinsess and some science has served me well.
Think of it as training a boxer. a good college puts you in great physical shape. quick, strong, endurance, etc. you get to know good trainers, managers and other fighters.
Working is where you learn to box. you get bloodied. you bloody some people. you are in the ring. you only have your record to stand by. nobody cares how many miles you ran, how hard you hit the heavy back, what you can bench.
a degree is a steping stone, a means to an end, and a part of a journey but by no means the destination imho.
7/3/2008 6:26:15 PM
Juice writes:
Mike, I think you may have misunderstood my post.
I concured with what you.
But lets all agree here that we are talking about is a luxury in life totally based on being consumed according to one's own personal taste and definition of what art is.
A music degree gives you a total understanding of the mechanics of music. That may of may not be benificial to some people. No more different than a doctor with degrees telling you that drinking, smoking, and Twinkis is the worst think for you because it's total crap.
Nobody will disagree with that.
But It's not a right or wrong issue as so many times some have applied it.
Doctors are also mechanics and despite how educated they are. They can be just as wrong as someone without any degree and some simple common sense. A good doctor will try his best to work with you and try to learn as much as he can to help you enjoy life better. Not throw a degree in your face and tell you there is only one option he will agree to treat.
Music is never a right or wrong issue when it comes to it being an art form. It's all according to taste and flavor.
Albeit trained musicians will instantly know exactly what's going on and know how to work it. But each era of music is always a phenomenon why people are drawn to it and is unpredictable as the weather.
Authority to the mecahnics is never disputed. But you can talk to me until your blue in the face on how great Jazz is just to prove a point but it's still is not something I would care to listen too. I do enjoy it on Cartoons though.
That is where authority doesn't apply and that is where I think helped promote the negative slant or stigma as some refer to.
I am not trying to dilute the value or challenge the degree vs non degree issue of a Berklee Degree.
I wish I had one. I also wish a lot of things happened in my life. But I'm where I am and thats that.
I have a dgree in HVAC but never got a job in that field. Sure I can fix a lot of things around the house. But I thinks it's fortunate if you've been able learn an ocupation that you truley love and been able to actaully put to use throughout your life. I think there is no better joy.
Many people haven't done that and for that reason alone "You Suck" because you did.
I would be honored to be hated for such a thing.
Although I do take pride in some things I'm hated for. Too bad it isn't that. :-)
I concured with what you.
But lets all agree here that we are talking about is a luxury in life totally based on being consumed according to one's own personal taste and definition of what art is.
A music degree gives you a total understanding of the mechanics of music. That may of may not be benificial to some people. No more different than a doctor with degrees telling you that drinking, smoking, and Twinkis is the worst think for you because it's total crap.
Nobody will disagree with that.
But It's not a right or wrong issue as so many times some have applied it.
Doctors are also mechanics and despite how educated they are. They can be just as wrong as someone without any degree and some simple common sense. A good doctor will try his best to work with you and try to learn as much as he can to help you enjoy life better. Not throw a degree in your face and tell you there is only one option he will agree to treat.
Music is never a right or wrong issue when it comes to it being an art form. It's all according to taste and flavor.
Albeit trained musicians will instantly know exactly what's going on and know how to work it. But each era of music is always a phenomenon why people are drawn to it and is unpredictable as the weather.
Authority to the mecahnics is never disputed. But you can talk to me until your blue in the face on how great Jazz is just to prove a point but it's still is not something I would care to listen too. I do enjoy it on Cartoons though.
That is where authority doesn't apply and that is where I think helped promote the negative slant or stigma as some refer to.
I am not trying to dilute the value or challenge the degree vs non degree issue of a Berklee Degree.
I wish I had one. I also wish a lot of things happened in my life. But I'm where I am and thats that.
I have a dgree in HVAC but never got a job in that field. Sure I can fix a lot of things around the house. But I thinks it's fortunate if you've been able learn an ocupation that you truley love and been able to actaully put to use throughout your life. I think there is no better joy.
Many people haven't done that and for that reason alone "You Suck" because you did.
I would be honored to be hated for such a thing.
Although I do take pride in some things I'm hated for. Too bad it isn't that. :-)
7/3/2008 6:39:41 PM
SKI and THE 99'ERS writes:
i know some horn players who went there and they are fantastic. good guys, too! it all depends on the person.
7/4/2008 9:10:53 AM
Trick Bag writes:
"I wouldn't know most Berklee grads because none are working as musicians!"
I don't know about that. Anyone I know from school are *all* working as musicians. Some you might not consider as musicians, such as my old roommate, who is doing sound for Madonna. Is that not working as a musician? I know a few who are working as school teachers, but that was their major, and their focus. They're all gigging at night, too. There are a lot of Berklee guys working in the studios of LA, NY, etc., and another of my old roommates is certainly making quite a good living playing bass down in New Orleans. Dude owns 8 houses now.
I don't know about that. Anyone I know from school are *all* working as musicians. Some you might not consider as musicians, such as my old roommate, who is doing sound for Madonna. Is that not working as a musician? I know a few who are working as school teachers, but that was their major, and their focus. They're all gigging at night, too. There are a lot of Berklee guys working in the studios of LA, NY, etc., and another of my old roommates is certainly making quite a good living playing bass down in New Orleans. Dude owns 8 houses now.
7/4/2008 1:18:20 PM
Lou Spagnola writes:
What really made me laugh about that guy from the story is that Berklee has a Jimmy Page Appreciation class. And many kids who are now attending music institutions are listening to Classic Rock.
That guy was just too self-absorbed for his own good.
It's true that it's much easier for the untrained musician to play rock music than to play jazz or classical. It's no slight to the rock player to say that they usually have it much easier than their jazz and classical counterparts because it's true.
That's only speaking of techical aspects - Allen Holdsworth can play circles around just about anyone on Earth, yet he'd be opening up for Mick Mars of Motley Crue if they toured together, even though he'd blow Mick away with his amp on standby.
A great jazz player might not have the feel for rock, while a great rock player might wilt while trying to play over the many chord changes and odd time signatures of jazz. Or maybe not.
When you think about it, an "artist" doesn't need to go to school if they already know how to draw, paint, or play an instrument.
But refining their craft through education will certainly help them to broaden their horizons. There's just no reason to get snobby about it....sort of reminds me of the Sneetches from that Dr. Seuss cartoon....."Look as us, we have stars on our bellies".
I think we can all make one or all of the following statements:
I played with someone who stunk before they went to Berklee, and still did when they got out.
I played with someone who stunk before Berklee, and was good when they got out.
I played with someone who was good before Berklee, and better when they got out.
Education has a way of bringing out more of a person's natural talent. But there's never a guarantee that they'll be able to play what they know, or use it on a live gig.
That guy was just too self-absorbed for his own good.
It's true that it's much easier for the untrained musician to play rock music than to play jazz or classical. It's no slight to the rock player to say that they usually have it much easier than their jazz and classical counterparts because it's true.
That's only speaking of techical aspects - Allen Holdsworth can play circles around just about anyone on Earth, yet he'd be opening up for Mick Mars of Motley Crue if they toured together, even though he'd blow Mick away with his amp on standby.
A great jazz player might not have the feel for rock, while a great rock player might wilt while trying to play over the many chord changes and odd time signatures of jazz. Or maybe not.
When you think about it, an "artist" doesn't need to go to school if they already know how to draw, paint, or play an instrument.
But refining their craft through education will certainly help them to broaden their horizons. There's just no reason to get snobby about it....sort of reminds me of the Sneetches from that Dr. Seuss cartoon....."Look as us, we have stars on our bellies".
I think we can all make one or all of the following statements:
I played with someone who stunk before they went to Berklee, and still did when they got out.
I played with someone who stunk before Berklee, and was good when they got out.
I played with someone who was good before Berklee, and better when they got out.
Education has a way of bringing out more of a person's natural talent. But there's never a guarantee that they'll be able to play what they know, or use it on a live gig.
7/6/2008 9:41:42 AM
Señor Bacardi writes:
Ahhh ...once again the Berklee musician thread LOL
My thoughts...Obviously in our music circle or universe
Berklee is known as one of the Best music schools and therefore warrants brag to those who graduated or ...er attended. On gigs I get asked often if I went to Berklee...probably cuz I'm a sax man. I usually say no ..I just learned one jazz lick from Berklee...LOL
Truth is ...it's always the individual some are modest some are A-holes. I bet it's like that with any high profile college grad.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall listening to a group of Bio chemists and chemical engineers and nuclear physicists with one a-hole telling everyone he or she went to MIT.
LOL...I can just see it ...." Man you're into Stanton Friedman? ..He's elementary man..He sucks man"
Wolfgang (Pief) Panofsky is the Man...Dude..
LMAO
I'know it happens..
Senor
My thoughts...Obviously in our music circle or universe
Berklee is known as one of the Best music schools and therefore warrants brag to those who graduated or ...er attended. On gigs I get asked often if I went to Berklee...probably cuz I'm a sax man. I usually say no ..I just learned one jazz lick from Berklee...LOL
Truth is ...it's always the individual some are modest some are A-holes. I bet it's like that with any high profile college grad.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall listening to a group of Bio chemists and chemical engineers and nuclear physicists with one a-hole telling everyone he or she went to MIT.
LOL...I can just see it ...." Man you're into Stanton Friedman? ..He's elementary man..He sucks man"
Wolfgang (Pief) Panofsky is the Man...Dude..
LMAO
I'know it happens..
Senor
7/6/2008 6:49:25 PM
Melvern Taylor writes:
On a side note... "Solfege" sounds like something that French guys do to each other on holiday.
7/6/2008 8:04:09 PM
Can we all agree that this is ONE asshole and not to paint every (Berklee) graduate with the same brush.
This is about People (attitude), not an institution.
Or maybe he just had an awkward reply and there was no ill intention there. That's also possible.
This is about People (attitude), not an institution.
Or maybe he just had an awkward reply and there was no ill intention there. That's also possible.
8/3/2008 1:25:37 PM
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