The Great Rhythm Guitar Players
Everybody notices the lead guitarist.
He's the one who's fast and loud, and exciting etc...
But there are some great rhythm guitar players too.
They may not be so flashy or flamboyant, and they don't get all the attention the lead guitarist gets.
So I thought it would be nice to talk about guys who play great guitar, but they never get much credit for it.
They sound great. They play well. They have the tone. They have the groove. They have the timing and the finesse. They play some really cool parts. They make the song happen.
Who are the great rhythm guitarists?
6/26/2008 12:15:10 AM
Malcolm Young
6/26/2008 12:21:02 AM
Named my first kid after the motherf*cker
6/26/2008 12:54:44 AM
Well, you can't talk about great rhythm guitarists and not include Keith Richards in the conversation. There are just so many great rhythm parts in their whole catalog.
Another guy who's actually a pretty good rhythm player is Eddie Van Halen. Lots of their songs have pretty cool backing guitar parts, and in many songs he does different rhythm parts in each verse.
6/26/2008 7:36:36 AM
WTFNG LL smooth K
6/26/2008 8:34:02 AM
Peter Townsend
Brad Whitford
Andy Summers
Tom Scholz
Juice
6/26/2008 8:36:36 AM
Paul Stanley
Also, I think you could say most lead players are great rhythym players too. I would call Bras Witford a rhythym player. He did quite a few leads on their early stuff.
6/26/2008 9:56:54 AM
I would say all 3 Beatles for sure because of those memorable parts. Yes, Keith and Ronny too.
If you saw Shine A Light, Ron Wood really holds down the fort.
Andy Summers of the Police, and The Edge from U2 certainly fill in a lot of sound.
Nobody slams a bar chord like Pete Townsend but he also plays great rhythms on acoustic.
Oooh, there's another topic - great acoustic guitar players.
6/26/2008 10:06:33 AM
Pete Townshend is my personal favorite. He's typically way underrated as a guitarist, but I love his playing.
6/26/2008 10:08:19 AM
Bob Weir needs to be included....
6/26/2008 10:19:23 AM
paul stanley doesn't need to be included, KISS doesn't qualify as musicians, any more than the monkees or that band that greg brady was in.
6/26/2008 10:23:43 AM
milhouse , good one. You know you are a great impersonator. We've heard your "asshole" impersonation, now let's see you impersonate a musician!
6/26/2008 10:38:02 AM
Pete Townsend's acoustic solo version of You Won't Get Fooled Again on the Policeman's Ball record (I don't have it, myself) is an extremely impressive rhythm spectacle. All the power of the tune is there, which reinforces to me just what a great songwriter and player he is.
6/26/2008 10:39:58 AM
Paul Stanley: Best Guitarist that dances like a chick.
Reminds me of Nancy Wilson. But she plays better.
:-)
6/26/2008 10:40:26 AM
Whichever Beatle does the rhythm part on Get Back is aces in my book.
6/26/2008 10:42:10 AM
That would be John, on a Gibson 335 I think...
6/26/2008 10:47:07 AM
Like many great guitarists, Summers and the Edge blur the line between rhythm and lead guitar. I love what they bring to the table for their bands, which both are essentially trios. I caught the last half of Rattle and Hum a few weeks ago, and came away with the impression that the Edge is one very impressive musician.
Likewise, Stevie Ray Vaughan is one of the best groove players I've ever heard. I'd guess that most people don't consider what he does rhythm guitar, but for me, that's the most impressive part of his tunes. The grooves all just grab you by the shoulders and shake.
6/26/2008 10:47:45 AM
arte you are the wisest and smoothest-
we may have discussed it, but that Policemen's ball was the balls indeed- I expected nothing from the music and to- find the comedy comedic-
instead the skits were basically the exact replicas of stuff I knew about and the solo performances were tremendous
6/26/2008 10:54:31 AM
I read that Bruce Sprinsteen doesn't even have his guitar turned on during any of his performances
6/26/2008 10:56:00 AM
riff, thats not an impersonation, i am an asshole.
but, i'm also like you, not a musician, total hack.
6/26/2008 11:11:08 AM
riff doesn't have his guitar turned on during performaces either, he got that tip from me.
His chick dancing moves though, he totaly got them from paul stanley.
6/26/2008 11:13:13 AM
i thought john played a casino on getback, not a 335? either way, i love that sound.
6/26/2008 11:13:51 AM
Another one is Pete Buck from R.E.M.
Oh and yeah, it was Casino, not a 335 Lennon played.
6/26/2008 12:12:37 PM
milhouse at least your honest. From what I've read on here apparently I'm not!
Oh and I do have a few PS moves although I haven't done them in years. The 4" boots don't really fit anymore.
6/26/2008 12:37:35 PM
IMO Allen Collins from the Lynyrd Skynyrd band.
6/26/2008 12:45:58 PM
I hate rhythm guitar. It's all about the leads. BB King spits on rhythm guitarists.
6/26/2008 5:25:31 PM
LOL at Matt.
That's probably because none of BB's relatives dare even to pick up a guitar. (His band is almost completely populated by his relatives.)
6/26/2008 5:31:17 PM
You guys are forgetting James Hetfield....great rythym player
6/26/2008 6:01:41 PM
Oh .....sorry I forgot.
6/26/2008 6:08:09 PM
I think fetters is a great rhythem guitar player.
and i think he can pop & lock while he plays.
6/26/2008 6:37:52 PM
Izzy Stradlin from GnR. He was the best part of that band.
6/26/2008 6:50:02 PM
Steve Cropper
6/26/2008 6:58:44 PM
Hetfield is the reason I play music.
Hendrix was also a brilliant rhythm player.
6/26/2008 9:23:42 PM
Where do you get that about B.B. King? First of all, B.B. acknowledges his current 2nd guitarist, Leon Warren, as being *his* teacher. Also, there may be one guy in the band that is related to B.B.
I actually don't believe in rhythm guitarists. A good guitar player is a good guitar player. He/she needs to be able to groove on rhythm and play great leads. There's rarely good reason for more than one guitar player in a band, with a few notable exceptions. Either get another chordal instrumentalist like keyboards, or a bassplayer that can cover the rhythm section duties with taste. Usually the best lead players are great on rhythm, too. Clapton, Hendrix, Carlton, Summers, McLaughlin, Van Halen, Leo Nocentelli, Robben Ford, Brian Stoltz, Shane Theriot, June Yamagichi, Renard Poche (look them up), etc., are all great rhythm players, too.
Guys who play rhythm and suck on lead probably suck on rhythm, too. I have no use for guys like Bob Weir. I've seen him screw up some of the the best players onstage, playing so screwed up rhythmically that no one can figure out what he's doing.
6/26/2008 10:21:14 PM
I think in Metal a Rythm guitarist is crucial for a nice fat sound.
6/26/2008 10:32:46 PM
Mike Crutcher, that was brilliant, and I feel the same way.
I always liked the term "parts player" rather than "rhythm player". The parts players are those who put their talents towards the composition and the orchestration rather than being a feature.
" Rhythm guitar player" was always so pejorative...."Oh, he must be the one that's not good, but he has a garage so we'll keep him and make him our rhythm guitarist".
When I think of great guitar "parts" players I think of:
Domenic Miller from Sting's band
Dave Brown from Billy Joel's Band
Walter Becker (Steely Dan)
Mike Rutherford - Genesis/Mike and The Mechanics
I think Buddy Holly would have been one of the great parts players.
But I'm a lead keyboard player, what the hell do I know?
6/26/2008 11:09:20 PM
i dont know how rhythm became pejorative.
if you can't you suck.
6/27/2008 8:18:28 AM
mike if you have no use for bob weir you are missing something.
his approaches, voicings and timing are unique. truly inventive stuff.
maybe you only have use for cowboy chord rhythem players?
6/27/2008 8:30:13 AM
"There's rarely good reason for more than one guitar player in a band"
what the hell are you talking about?
i always though de Lucia, McLaughlin & Di Meola would have sucked with just one guitarist.
6/27/2008 8:38:21 AM
"I actually don't believe in rhythm guitarists"
impressive and bold. i don't know now where to begin.
6/27/2008 8:40:44 AM
Milhouse, don't taunt the happy fun Variax man.
6/27/2008 8:50:12 AM
I think Ken's initial goal here was to pay tribute to actual "rhytym" guitars players defined as the second guitarist in the 2 guitar format. But as usual, the many boneheads that come here turn it in a typcial turd fest of moronic posts and opinions. Nice work all!
6/27/2008 8:58:27 AM
well spoken, riffdaddy. as bonehead in chief, you should know, you kicked off the moronc posts and opinions with style.
6/27/2008 9:02:33 AM
I noticed someone posted Tom Scholz earlier.
In the 2 guitarist format that Riff talks about, wouldn't Barry Goudreau have been the rhythm guitarist (even though Tom played pretty much all the guitar parts anyway)?
6/27/2008 9:04:58 AM
"Guys who play rhythm and suck on lead probably suck on rhythm, too."
Pete Townsend Sucks. Can't play a lead for crap.
Andy Summers get real man! Learn a lick will ya.
Neil Young? Don't go there. He'd be better off if he never tried to bend any notes because he certainly can't bend them in pitch.
Ton Scholtz? He is actually a converted Keyboardist. He did play a lot of the guitar work but all the great leads I believe were credit to Barry G.
6/27/2008 9:31:22 AM
I've worked with many good lead guitar players.
I've worked with less than half a dozen who really work hard at defining the groove, attacking it with the same ferocity that they do with their leads.
At the risk of alienating my friends here at LowellRocks, I'll pick someone from outside the area as my Exhibit A. Listen to Larry Lusignan from Larry and the Bluescasters. (He plays at Sangria's every once in a while, but mostly plays on the North Shore.) I played with Larry in the Swanky Moes and he was the first guy I ever played with who pretty much defined the pocket from the guitar chair. It really opened my eyes to what was possible. In fact, when doing duo gigs on acoustic guitar, I'm always work hard trying to define the groove, and a lot of that awareness I owe to Larry.
For the famous folks, as I said previously, I think SRV did this great. In fact, I liked his grooves as much or more than his leads (which also were fabulous, but the grooves were what I liked about his music).
6/27/2008 9:53:58 AM
((puzzled))
I can't tell if you're kidding or not.
6/27/2008 9:54:55 AM
Milhouse is one hell of a parts player.
6/27/2008 10:00:10 AM
The Tom Scholz/Barry Goudreau story is a tricky one. I've heard that Tom, Brad and a drummer recorded that first Boston album before assembling the band. Then I've heard that Barry G played most of the solos. When I saw them live Scholz played all of the lead solos. He is a good rhythn player too and an even better organist.
Milhouse, thanks for the praise, coming from you it means so much to me.
6/27/2008 10:01:40 AM
I've been fortunate enought to work with a few great players who were good at both lead and rhythm. Grooving on rhythm is a must. Kudos to all you git players who work on your rhythm playing as hard as your lead playing.
6/27/2008 10:04:34 AM
Jim, if you're puzzled about my posting (the one before your question), my posting was intended to be serious.
6/27/2008 10:08:55 AM
Oh, wait, you're probably talking about Juice's post before mine.
6/27/2008 10:09:43 AM
I was.
Your post was very lucid.
6/27/2008 10:32:55 AM
My post was strictly sarcasm. :-)
I actually honor those players I mentioned.
6/27/2008 10:46:30 AM
Bob Weir
6/27/2008 10:52:41 AM
I saw Bob Weir sit in with the Neville Bros. in 2002 at the New Orleans Jazz & Heritage Fest, and then that same night with the Funky Meters. I don't remember what tune he did with the Nevilles, but I remember that he did "Do You Want To Dance" and "Hey Pockey Way" with the Funky Meters, and he did the same thing with both groups: screwed up the timing, turning the time around and screwed up both bands. Maybe he's not good with 4/4; these complicated time signatures are always hard to follow, even for such an advance player.
How embarrassing. Maybe I'm out of line, but I really prefer to play with guys that can tune their instruments decently.
6/27/2008 12:12:05 PM
Why is there hardly ever a question about whether or not there should be two keyboardists, two drummers, or two bassists in a band? Occasionally, all of these things happen, but it's always "rhythm guitar or no rhythm guitar" that is the question. I don't remember ever hearing anyone saying that Hendrix needed a rhythm guitarist, although he occasionally overdubbed rhythm parts in the studio. I find that Clapton doesn't need a rhythm player as much as he needs someone to cover leads when he is singing.
Metal bands needing rhythm guitar? Ozzy doesn't seem to need one, Sabbath didn't, Deep Purple, Rainbow, and the heaviest of them all, Jethro Tull...
;-)
6/27/2008 12:19:28 PM
Bob Weir
6/27/2008 12:44:32 PM
recorded hendrix has plenty non-power trio rhythem chicanery goin on. played with rhythme guitarists from time to time, live. so he disagreed with you.
clapton finds differently than you, but, you would know better i guess.
the list of metal bands with 2 guitarists??? yeah i can't think of any, good call.
i am not disagreeing that 1 guitar bands are good, just with your retarded assertion that you dont belive in 'rhythem' guitar players.
and bob weir in two guest apearances sucked? that means he sucks? wow.
6/27/2008 1:16:50 PM
Did you ever notice how many country bands, when they play live, they seem to have a friggin' platoon of rhythm guitarists?
There's always like 3 acoustic guys, 2 electric guys, a banjo, a dobro, a 12 string, and 2 keyboard players, and a fiddle.
On TV I can never seem to hear all of that. It looks cool though.
6/27/2008 1:23:59 PM
Bob Weir.
6/27/2008 1:39:44 PM
I've always advocated no guitar, bass OR drums, let alone two of each.
I just want holographic images and cardboard cutouts of myself strategically placed all over a stage.
Kind of like the end of the "Ebony and Ivory" video:
youtube.com/watch?v=sssqbjatz...
6/27/2008 1:55:33 PM
First of all, learn to spell "rhythm".
Second, how often did Hendrix work with rhythm guitarists live? What, the Woodstock show? Yeah, and that was his best playing, right?
Re: Clapton: read closer. He uses a 2nd guitarist, but it's not usually solely a rhythm guitarist, it's usually someone who can cover his leads when he's singing. He can't sing the "Layla" lick, among others, and play the guitar part at the same time. There's a video from the '80's in which Clapton tours with just keys, bass, and drums(Phil Collins), and it's some of Clapton's best playing of that era.
And no, 2 appearances by Bob Weir doesn't make him suck. Having not gotten any better in the umpteen thousands of shows he did shows that he sucks. The fact that a good many rabid deadheads even concede that he's an embarrassment shows that he sucks. Playing with the world's oldest, out of tune band for so many years shows that he sucks.
Reading comprehension: I didn't say that metal bands don't have 2 guitarists. I cited a few that are just as heavy and musical without a "rhythm" guitarist, responding to someone else saying that a rhythm guitarist being crucial to a thick sound.
Geez, do we need to have a "reading for musicians" class here?
6/27/2008 2:37:53 PM
who told you you get to decide the valididy of a band with more than one guitarists?
oldest out of tune band shows he sucks?
just because bob weir didn't get his avatar photo at glamour shots doesn't mean he sucks.
so you don't like the dead or bob weir. i get that. but it's more likely that you just have a hard time wrapping your arms around anything more than a single guitar player wanking on cowboy chords.
6/27/2008 2:49:47 PM
oh wait, my bad you are a quintessential guitarist. i should have asked you if having a second guitar player was relavant.
i know clapton and hendrix only did it by mistake.
6/27/2008 2:51:44 PM
Mike but I just gave a listen to your mp3's.
Now I know exactly where you are coming from.
6/27/2008 3:02:02 PM
was it quintessential?
6/27/2008 3:41:33 PM
No, but it probably sucked.
6/27/2008 4:04:01 PM
Ok, it didn't suck
But it's also not at all quintessential.
6/27/2008 4:08:28 PM
Now Blue Cheer was a THICK sounding band!
3 guys I think right?
I gotta go. I'm busy putting the finishing touches on my cardboard cutouts and anatomically correct mannequins for my gig tonight.
We're gonna suck quintessnetially!
6/27/2008 4:08:58 PM
I would never say that dog nor do I think it.
But I will say he is a lot more passionate about his lead playing than he is about his rhythm playing.
A coupls people I personally like that I feel fall short in the Lead catagory but excell much greater in their rhythm playing.
Alex Lifeson from Rush I regard as a far better rhythm player that a lead player.
Also Trevor Rabin from YES.
Michael Shenker is an excellent lead player. But his rhythms are not to die for.
6/27/2008 4:14:44 PM
Dunno, Juice. There's passionate and "rubs me the wrong way".
This thread wasn't really supposed to be about people's feelings on rhythm gutarists, it was really just about people we happen to like.
There are days when I wish lr.com had an ignore list.
6/27/2008 4:27:00 PM
Opinions are feelings.
Besdies the only threads around here that stay on course are my Songpull threads.
It can't go too far with just a reply or 2. :-)
6/27/2008 4:42:57 PM
That thread about milhouse being an asshole stayed on topic
and dog, what are you still doing here? I thought I told you to go f*ck yourself a long time ago-
just f*cking kidding
6/27/2008 4:54:21 PM
seriously
6/27/2008 4:55:58 PM
No I'm just f*cking around
seriously just f*cking joking
but not really
just kidding
6/27/2008 4:56:42 PM
what the f*ck
6/27/2008 4:56:57 PM
Bob Weir
6/27/2008 6:47:39 PM
tom petty
6/28/2008 2:21:04 AM
no love for mick marrs?
david byrne
marc knopfler
john lennon
peter svenson (the cardigans)
lindsey buckingham
nil lara
6/28/2008 3:36:44 AM
aimee mann
dave matthews
6/28/2008 3:40:51 AM
jimmy page
dick dale
6/28/2008 8:42:58 AM
Bruce Springsteen
6/28/2008 8:47:31 AM
Keith Richard(s)
Izzy Stradlin
Rich Robinson
Nancy Wilson
6/28/2008 9:57:54 AM
warren haynes and derek trucks
no doubt malcolm young
anyone that was ever in Thin Lizzy
the guys in MOE
6/28/2008 11:37:12 AM
Bob Weir
6/28/2008 11:42:25 AM
Hmmm, I believe I'm being dissed on my clips. Where are your clips, boys? I don't know why "I will say he is a lot more passionate about his lead playing than he is about his rhythm playing." Just like most professional players, I spend far more time comping chords and playing rhythm than playing lead. I don't understand why one would think that I don't spend much time on my rhythm playing, when these clips show about 40 seconds of lead playing on one track, and about 30 seconds on the other. I'm playing a *lot* of rhythm guitar on those tracks.
Let's clarify this, which seemed to be echoed by JZ. It's not that I disagree with rhythm playing or being a good rhythm guitarist. What I don't agree with is a guitarist that only plays rhythm, and considers him/herself a "rhythm guitarist". One reason for not digging that is that there is not usually a lot of call for lead guitar *all the way* through a song. I also think that a budding guitarist should learn the whole package. Why aren't there any "rhythm keyboard" players? There are some great bands with more than one guitar player. Those are the exception, and I highly recognize them. There are also a lot of great bands with one guitar player, easily just as viable.
My list of great rhythm guitarists, all of whom are great lead players, as well, proving my point:
Keith Richards
Eddie Van Halen
Peter Townshend
Andy Summers
Nancy Wilson
Steve Cropper
Hendrix
Warren Haynes
Derek Trucks
Jimmy Page
Domenic Miller
Walter Becker
Mike Rutherford
Leo Nocentelli
Robben Ford
Brian Stoltz
Shane Theriot
June Yamagichi
Renard Poche
And Milhouse, let me know when you hear any cowboy chords in my music. And where are your clips?
6/28/2008 3:54:51 PM
People don't need to post their own stuff to critique yours, Mike.
I listened to it and it was good. Not particularly a style that interestes me, personally, though.
6/28/2008 4:17:26 PM
Mike C ?
"Geez, do we need to have a "reading for musicians" class here? "
>>>>>>>>>>>&... notices the lead guitarist.
He's the one who's fast and loud, and exciting etc...
But there ARE some great rhythm guitar players too.
They may not be so flashy or flamboyant, and they DON'T get all the attention the LEAD GUITARIST gets."
>>>>>>>>>>&g... think you pretty much proved your point.
Like I said I know exactly where you are coming from. :-)
6/28/2008 9:41:43 PM
That was weird.
The text went into some kind of guitar solo over the typed vocals. :-)
6/28/2008 9:43:37 PM
No, no one needs to post their own stuff to critique mine, but if they're going to poke fun at mine, or at least say that they "probably sucked". If someone wants critique them with some semblance of constructive criticism, that's always welcome.
I'm not sure what you mean by "know exactly where you are coming from" in the context of this discussion.
6/28/2008 11:08:52 PM
Mr. Crutcher, you are way too serious about way too many things.
6/28/2008 11:28:35 PM
Says who? So, you're not going to explain your comment? Is that too serious, too?
6/28/2008 11:40:32 PM
Says me.
And ""know exactly where you are coming from" isn't my comment.
6/28/2008 11:52:57 PM
Then add me to your imaginary "ignore list".
6/29/2008 12:42:13 AM
First, it's not gonna work like that. You post, people respond, whether it's me or someone else. Second, lighten up. I'm sure you feel like people have reacted harshly to your posts, perhaps unfairly, Maybe yes, maybe no. But everyone gets snarked at here. It's part of the culture.
6/29/2008 12:54:24 AM
So you're the Lowellrocks.com moderator now?
6/29/2008 2:00:09 AM
Who cares???
6/29/2008 2:33:42 AM
How many of these things imply that I'm trying to moderate LR.com:
a) LR.com is a message board where people make threads and people post comments on a variety of topics.
b) LR.com, like many message boards has a lot of snarky comments
Correct answer: Zero. None of these things can even be remotely considered trying to moderate LR.com
Oh and BTW, LR.com is largely self moderated. Management around here takes a very hands off approach to moderation. Owing to the fact that a lot of us know each other personally, very little of the snark that happens here, even stuff the people get really pissed about, never tops people from being friendly and helpful. I can think of only a few cases where the site owners felt they needed to exercise additional moderation.
So, no. I'm not a LR.com moderator. But then again, such a thing doesn't really exist, except in extreme cases.
6/29/2008 2:36:48 AM
That was my comment. And I'll be happy to elaborate my meaning. I've met and played with many so called lead guitar players in my time and for the most part they pride themselves on how fast they can play.
Unfortunately most of them hardly ever play a song right regarding the rhythym. They can play leads and they accept "close enough" when they are out of their limits but also accept "not even close" to the rhythm sections.
I think you regard rhythm players nothing more than strumming fillers to fatten things up. I Don't and never have. Capturing every nuance in a good rhythm is every bit as challenging as playing leads. Chord picking and rhythmic arppegios are very awkward feeling for many guitarists.
I don't care how well someone can play Eruption, if I can't tell what song they are playing until the vocals come in. Then you may not be as good on rhythm as you think you are.
So yes, I know exactly where you are coming from and have put many lead guitar players in their place. I've always had to earned my respect from most of them while many assume they automatically deserve it. It's just an Ego thing is all.
Regarding your songs. I didn't say anything negative about them. But just because I'm not a lead guiitarist doesn't mean I can distinguish between a lead solo with feeling as well as a rhythm played with feeling.
Rhythm playing isn't just about knowing the chords. Well maybe from where you stand it is just good enough. :-)
6/29/2008 8:03:50 AM
I'm swooshing out of here now. It's unfortunate Ken's attemp to give Kudos to those that seem to be in the background of the media has resulted in pushing them even further back.
I apologize if I helped trash your thread Ken.
6/29/2008 8:11:03 AM
I think what Mike Crutcher is trying to point out is that the rhythm guitarist and the guitarist who plays rhythms (which is why they should be called "parts" guitarists and not rhythm) are two different things.
Eddie Van Halen is known for his guitar soloing, Jimmy Page is known for his guitar "playing" (riffs). They are the sole guitarists in their respective bands, so are they lead guitarists if there is only one guitarist?
6/29/2008 9:30:34 AM
The term "Parts Guitarist" is unknown to anybody I've ever met until now.
Pat Travers / Pat Thrall (No Distinction)
Rudy Shenker / Michael Shenker (Rhythm / Lead)
Sammy Hagar / Ronnie Montrose (Rhythm / Lead)
Dave Murray / Janick Gers "Iron Maiden" (No Distinction)
Brad Whitford / Joe Perry (RHYTHM - lead / LEAD - rhythm)
It depends on the postion you hold in the structure of the band or that particular song not your capabilities. The majority role you play is what normally determines your position.
By arguing that Rhythm and Lead postions should be renamed as "Parts" serves no purpose. Percusionist and Drummer are also two disticntions that you can also say they are the same. But they are clearly not when you have the two together in one band such as Santana.
The point of this thread again was to highlight those that live in the shadows of (Lead Guitarists). Not to bring more attention to well known lead guitar players that also play rhythm. Of course they play rhythm also they have no choice being the only guitarist in the band. But they are not the unoticed guitarists.
6/29/2008 10:52:24 AM
I guess my point was that the entire post regarding his "rejection" of the idea rhythm guitarist isn't on topic and has pretty much served to detail the thread.
Juice, that last post was spot on, IMO.
6/29/2008 11:17:19 AM
So, you're deciding who's got the right to voice his/her opinion? My point was that I don't believe in (background/"in the shadows") rhythm guitarists. A guitarist should be able to handle, and should do both. If you want to moderate what I have to say about the topic, feel free. Just because the topic doesn't go where you want it to, doesn't mean it's off topic.
Notice that I said "There's rarely good reason for more than one guitar player in a band, with a few notable exceptions." Hmmm, seems like a list of what I'm considerig to be notable exceptions would be far more on topic than 90% of the other replies that cited Townshend, Summers, Van Halen, Keith Richards, Stevie Ray, Steve Cropper, Hetfield, Hendrix, warren haynes and derek trucks, etc. Do all those posters fall under your "Off Topic" umbrella, too? Seems to me that Kennium could speak up for himself if he wanted to see the thread go somewhere different. None of these guys "live in the shadows of lead guitarists." Let's make fun of them and their playing until the cease and desist, as well.
6/29/2008 11:38:08 AM
Stick to playing guitar, Mike, because you have poor logic skills.
No, Mike, I'm expressing my opinion about where you took this thread with your posts. You are certainly free to post whatever BS you want, but we're also free to call you on it. You derailed the topic with your pontificating about who you (the quintessential) Mike Crutcher, thinks about the whole idea of rhythm guitarists. I don't expect you to recognize that owing to your own myopic view.
This thread is precisely about people who are admired for their rhythm playing. Regardless of whether they can handle both lead and rhythm playing. Regardless of whether they stand in the shadow of the lead guitarist.
"Just because the topic doesn't go where you want it to, doesn't mean it's off topic.
Logic failure.
"Let's make fun of them and their playing until the cease and desist,"
A cease and desist from who? LR.com site owners?
6/29/2008 11:57:01 AM
I'm a huge fan of Rhythm guitar. I'm also a huge fan of lead guitar. I'm not partial to either.
6/29/2008 12:11:04 PM
I also love the sound of about 6 guitar players all soloing at once.
6/29/2008 12:12:24 PM
And really fast too.
6/29/2008 12:13:19 PM
Sometimes slow but I like mostly fast solos if using distortion.
6/29/2008 12:14:08 PM
JZ All-Stars at the Haluwa on Friday July 11th.
I need a rhythm guitarist.
Must be a worse guitar player than my lead guitarist
Must not play a solo EVER
Must not know how to play parts
Must not be better looking than anyone else in the band
Must have to stand in the shadow of ME.
All inquiries please Email me at jimzaroulis@comcast.net, do not respond to this thread.
Thank you.
-JZ
6/29/2008 12:19:26 PM
I'll take the gig Jim.
6/29/2008 12:30:16 PM
Swanee you kill me. How's it going ole boy?
6/29/2008 12:44:11 PM
Deals brother, good deals...
Let's yap on the phone soon...time for a Boyne or Logan's Run in my neighborhood my good man.
6/29/2008 1:08:38 PM
"My point was that I don't believe in (background/"in the shadows") rhythm guitarists. A guitarist should be able to handle, and should do both."
Mike, you obviously don't get it and you're stuck in Coverband Exhile where everything is already created for you just to copy.
It's chemistry that brings more than one guitar player together in the same band. Not so much who can play who's part. Do you think all those bands that have more than one guitar player is nothing more than the lead guitarist writing and composing all the guitar parts and telling the rhytmn guitarist what to play? I think not. In fact many of the less capable players are the dominant songwriters in a band.
I've met very few guitar players that are fluent in all genres and making original music is all about experimenting with different background influences.
There are no bounderies when it comes to forming bands whether you include violins, dobros, flutes, horns, whatever.
It's not about who is capable at what they can play.
All that matters is what comes together to make music that people love to hear. Who stands in the media spotlight is nothing more than the comercial wrapper. Not what's inside the package.
6/29/2008 1:29:02 PM
Crutcher I feel for you. I've gotten hammered in the past for arguing the same point you're trying to get across. So.. I'll keep my mouth shut this time around. But in any case, you sound like my kind of guitar player. Come by my house gig at Sangria's on July 4th(plug!) and sit in. Would love to hear you play.
"Hi I'm a drummer.....but I only play ride cymbal and snare."
6/29/2008 1:35:23 PM
I've been waiting forever for Mike V to chime in here!!!
I remember that the term "Rhythm Guitarist" was your pet peeve!
6/29/2008 4:27:51 PM
"You check out Guitar George, he knows all the chords,
Mind he's strictly rhythm he doesn't want to make it cry or sing,
And an old guitar is all, he can afford
When he gets up under the lights, to play his thing " - Sultans of Swing
6/29/2008 4:34:45 PM
Man, I wish I had the time to pontificate endlessly on pointless discussions like this hehe
6/29/2008 4:42:03 PM
Carl, you've got to MAKE the time!
6/29/2008 4:43:20 PM
Apparently Guitar George would have a hard time passing muster with some folks.
6/29/2008 4:44:28 PM
fwiw, guitar is part of the rhythem section, along with bass and percusion (keys & drums) in.
6/29/2008 5:58:58 PM
I always considered rhythm guitar more important. Someone mentioned how some good lead players can't play rhythm to save their life. That's been my experience in general. I consider myself a better rhythm player than lead.
6/29/2008 7:23:48 PM
I've always found the best lead guitarists are the ones who excel at rhythm playing.
I actually like listening to EVHs rhythm playing more than his solos.
6/29/2008 7:55:29 PM
Rob and Rick, I agree on the rhythm playing thing. I've never argued that. I always teach my students to know many chords along with the power chords that they'd rather play. I've also said forever and a day that it's all about rhythm. One can play a lot of bad notes with good rhythmic feel and still sound pretty good. Play all good notes with bad rhythmic feel and they sound pretty bad. My problem is with the "rhythm guitarist" label. A guitarist should learn the entire instrument, not just the rhythm parts. As I said before, no such thing as a "rhythm keyboardist". If one prefers to comp chords rather than play lead, that's their prerogative. I'd go further to say that a lead player that can't play lead to save their life is not really *that* good a lead player, and is missing half of the picture.
Juice, you and I are not all that far off in opinion. I don't have the jaded feelings towards two guitarists in a band as you seem to think, and you are far off base on the "stuck in Coverband Exhile where everything is already created for you just to copy.". I actually not even all that sure what you mean by that. My non-belief in "rhythm guitarist" has more to do with not believing in the "this is your role and this is mine" attitude. As someone pointed out earlier, Whitford is far from "just the rhythm guitarist", as well as Ron Wood, Pat Simmons, Gossard, and just about anyone that appeared with Clapton. These are one of two (or more) guitarists in their respective bands. They play, to borrow from JZ, parts instead of being "only the rhythm guitarist". It was you who said that this thread was supposed to be about the "overshadowed rhythm guitarist". I don't see that as being the original topic of this thread at all, and the fact that it went someplace is certainly not my fault. Posters were certainly citing Hendrix, Van Halen, Summers, and Stevie Ray far before I chimed in. It sounds like Dog has an issue with you about what this thread is about. Of course Dog seems to have an issue with everyone here, AFAIK.
Oh, and Dog? Fuck off, and learn to read. You obviously don't even know what logic is.
JZ, brilliant post as usual. Your dripping-with-sarcasm post is exactly the point I'm trying to make. With good players, particularly a good bass player, and preferably a keyboard player in the mix, there's rarely the need for more than one guitarist in a band. There are certainly notable exceptions to this rule, as stated above.
6/29/2008 9:13:34 PM
Mike V., I'll probably take you up on that offer. We're playing at Sangria's the next night. I'd be happy to sit in.
6/29/2008 9:19:56 PM
"It sounds like Dog has an issue with you about what this thread is about. Of course Dog seems to have an issue with everyone here, AFAIK".
You derailed the thread and I called you out on it. In fact, a lot of people called you out on your bullshit. I don't have a problem with you except as concerns this thread. Disagree as you may about the point of the thread, but do you REALLY want to make this personal?
"Oh, and Dog? Fuck off, and learn to read. You obviously don't even know what logic is. "
*shrug*. That kind of comment says more about you than me.
6/29/2008 9:40:42 PM
Fuck you. You're a child. You came out saying that my clips "probably suck", that I have "poor logic skills", and give me shit about liking the Variax. You want me to start putting you down in a public forum? Or do you just want to stop this here and now?
6/29/2008 10:04:50 PM
Logic fails again. That Berklee education you got was incomplete, since it didn't give you good reading comprehension. Your main points fail because they are provably incorrect.
Yes I said "probably sucks" but a few posts later I said, "doesn't suck, bit it's not something that interests me personally".
And listen, ya dumbfuck. I OWN a variax. In FACT, except for CM and maybe Matt Fetters, I was one of the FIRST people to recognize the value of it. As always, your poor fucking logic skills and your complete fucking arrogance means you can't see past your own fucking viewpoint to see what I said.
"You want me to start putting you down in a public forum?"
Bring it, Fuckhead. You ain't got what it takes.
6/29/2008 10:18:43 PM
So fuck you, and and your shitty warmed over "funk".
6/29/2008 10:19:20 PM
Whew! I'm glad you guys got this resolved.
But seriously, I'm betting that milhouse is sitting back and laughing his ass off at the hostility he managed to stir up here.
A few points I'll make before half a million readers tell me to butt out of it and mind my own business.
Mike Crutcher's first post was not insulting to anyone, but he certainly got slammed for it unnecessarily, and that started this mess.
As to the point that Mike's post was a kind of derailment considering the thread's original intent, I can agree to that to a certain extent, if I had made this thread, it probably woulda bugged me, but knowing the original poster's (Kennium) open minded and sympathetic views on hijacking, I'd say it was probably fine.
Dog's original Variax poke was probably more good natured than it came off next to milhouse's initial barrage.
So please, step back, realize that to a certain degree milhouse is pulling your strings like a puppet master, don't be embarrassed, it happens to everyone now and then, but let it die.
I'm Jerry Springer, be good to each other. (or whatever the hell it is he closes his show with)
6/29/2008 10:45:50 PM
The voice of reason, as always, CM. I'm out of this thread.
6/29/2008 10:49:56 PM
i told cm to post that.
6/29/2008 11:33:02 PM
i also made him like shasta tiki punch.
6/29/2008 11:33:19 PM
he originally wanted to be called mount gay and the rum runners but i talked him into somthing more manly.
6/29/2008 11:34:17 PM
seriously, mike c. you said some odd things here. highly condesending. and moronic.
99.999% of guitar solos suck.
i know, i play guitar. i doubt many people on this website can impress me with thier solos.
really.
i know a few that can.
most can't.
not saying i would impress. i can suck wind like you read about.
just saying, the derivative stuff, or choppless stuff yeah, thats a dime a dozzen.
play the fkn song first.
6/29/2008 11:42:13 PM
Mike I personally like being the Rhythm guitarist. It's a position I prefer. I want a lead guitarist to go nuts while I got his back. It helps me keep other aspects under control which I'm more suited for.
Tim Conway was a supporting artist. It didn't make him less of an actor. He just fit better there.
I don't know why your belief should accept nothing other than a lead role.
Personally I would rather spend more time writing songs than perfecting my guitar playing to be all things.
What you don't seem to address with your analogy is the talent of creative songwriting. Whatever elements it takes to have a chemistry to produce awesome music then that's what it calls for. The lables mean nothing more than a way for fans to identify the players easier when listening to their music. Remember the majority of the buying music public need to be spoon fed. There is nothing wrong with that.
In music class there is only guitarists. But in the rest of the world they like the term Rhytm Guitarist.
6/30/2008 12:27:59 AM
I don't like this place anymore. Too hostile.
6/30/2008 7:11:33 AM
I dont know if he was mentioned already because I didnt go through all the dribble but Izzy Stradlin was a fantastic rythm Player.
Not your typical power cord follower. More Stones like. The stones had great 2 part guitar also.
6/30/2008 8:23:55 AM
What the hell, against my better judgement I'll muddy the waters a little...why does a guy like Milhouse get reviled on occasion for sh!tstirring but bandfan gets a pat on the back for doing the same thing?
I'm just asking...and Mil, maybe you should wear a Zorro mask or something.
So this is not a total derail one of my favorite parts players is Mike Nesmith.
6/30/2008 8:32:45 AM
I read this whole thread and can't believe how deep the horse shit is. Bring me my hip boots woman! The hogs need sloppin!
6/30/2008 8:33:47 AM
who cares?
6/30/2008 8:35:42 AM
I actually get to learn alot when some of you guys beat the sh*t out of each other with your ego sticks. Ther's some good points here.
6/30/2008 8:40:47 AM
I don't know the guy's name, but I have always loved the rhythm parts played on the Doobie Brothers stuff.
6/30/2008 8:48:15 AM
Funny how Mike Valeras and Rob Keeler said the same things that Mike Crutcher said and no one chose to debate them.
Yet the thread continued. Which pretty much proves my theory that serious music topics cannot be discussed here any longer.
Mike C, Mike V, and Rob K, it was a good try though!
Mike V at Sangrias on a Friday
Mike C. at Sangrias on a Saturday
Now if one of you guys sits in with the other on one of your gigs, who plays rhythm?
The answer is Rob Keeler.
Ok, back to Lowell........er....oh well, back to Lowell Rocks.
6/30/2008 9:44:44 AM
Juice,
I can certainly dig your position. Sorry if I've been unclear; I try to not do that. I have said, however, that there are some notable exceptions to my "no rhythm guitarists" feeling. I'm assuming that you're probably one of them, although I haven't heard your music. It's not that I'm against rhythm guitar; no, no, no. When I teach, I make sure to get across first thing that it's all about 1)chords, and 2)rhythm. My position has nothing to do with lack of creativity in songwriting; apples and oranges. I dig where you're coming from, but I'm only talking about a performing band, not lack of chords, or lack of rhythm guitar. A good rhythm section should be able to hold down the rhythm parts. A decent keyboard player and a good bass player should be all that you need.
I'm not saying that no one should play rhythm guitar. I guess I'm saying that there shouldn't be a distinction between the "lead guitarist" and the "rhythm guitarist". Somehow my comments have been misconstrued here to mean "a guitarist should be blowing lead over the whole tune with no regard to chords whatsoever", which is far from the truth. Actually, kind of the opposite; a guitarist should be attending the groove at all times, even making sure that there aren't holes during his/her solo. That would also be the job of the bass player and keyboard player. I enjoy playing rhythm guitar, as well. It's not so much that "I enjoy this" as it is "I'm a guitarist; this is what I do". There is fairly little time that a guitar solo is appropriate in a song. If someone is a dedicated rhythm guitarist, then the "lead guitarist" should really be sitting out for an inordinate amount of time in the song, or the two guitarists need to work out parts to split up rhythm guitar duties.
Overall, I find that bands that "need" a rhythm guitarist *and* a lead guitarist are due because 1)the rhythm section are not doing their jobs well enough, or 2)one guitarist doesn't know his instrument well enough to be considered "the lead guitarist". I'm not *at all* saying that this is you; I'm saying that most times I find this. If you do a 2+ guitar band without keyboards, then yes, of course someone needs to play rhythm. I just don't really think that there should be defined roles. Swanee mentioned the Doobie Bros. There was no "rhythm guitarist" in that band. They all played "parts", as defined by JZ. Pat Simmons probably played more rhythm guitar than Tom Johnston or John McFee, but he was by no means considered "the rhythm guitarist". He played traded solos, played acoustic parts, harmony guitar parts, etc. *That* band, IMO, was a *great* example of a notable exception to the "one guitar" rule. They worked out their parts well, and didn't get in the way of the keyboards, and vice versa. However, they could, and sometimes did, get along fine without the 2nd guitarist, as the rhythm section could handle it.
Again, why is a keyboardist expected to play "rhythm" as well as "lead"? Why don't we hear about "rhythm keyboardists"? Keily has a great point; the Stone have great two-guitar parts. Definitely a notable exception to the "one guitar" rule. Which one of them is the "rhythm guitarist"?
I would argue that Tim Conway was a great supporting artist *and* a great actor. He could take the lead role as well as the supporting role.
6/30/2008 9:52:03 AM
Swanee,
While I'm quite aware of the Monkees and their history of studio players in the earlier (and more popular) music, I'm less aware of the ones that the actors actually played the parts. I know Mike Nesmith wrote "Different Drum" for Linda Ronstadt, but can you point us to some tunes that showcase Nesmith's guitar playing, parts, rhythm, lead, or otherwise? I'd be interested in checking his playing out.
6/30/2008 9:57:10 AM
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/rhythm_s...embrace being in the rhythm section.
and JZ, mike c said some pretty retarded things that mike v or rob k didn't come close to saying. mike c comes off as a pompus ass, and a closed minded person.
now he's back tracking.
he has a problem with the lable 'rhytem guitar' therefore he shouldn't be allow around students until he writes on the chalk board 1000 times:
"The guitar is part of the rhythem section. I love to play rhthem. Bands can have more than on guitar player only a talentless hack can't figure out how to play witha second guitar player"
6/30/2008 10:09:57 AM
dont bother mike, swanee was kidding. mike nesmith sucks.
he's no bob weir.
6/30/2008 10:13:39 AM
swanee thinks elmo is a good parts player.
6/30/2008 10:14:16 AM
Even tho most of the Monkees big hits were penned for them he contributed alot to the last two studio albums, and his solo stuff post Monkees had a great rock country sensibility...very kinda Poco-ish.
See if you can find "Magnetic South" in a markdown bin Mike.
6/30/2008 10:14:34 AM
I had no idea that Swanee had some dirty hippie in him. ;)
6/30/2008 10:28:38 AM
< something >
6/30/2008 10:29:27 AM
I'm glad I started this thread, but I should have expected (and kinda DID) that somehow it would become a negative thing.
Common occurrence. Too bad.
Get out the ruler and unzip your fly.
I'm gonna try to bring it back into a positive light and talk about the difference between playing the role of Rhythm Guitarist.
To me, that doesn't just mean 'The guy who plays the chords."
A really good rhythm guitar player works with the drummer just as much as the bass player. They set up a solid pattern and lock into it, making the whole band sound tight and allowing the singer to relax and feel the groove and sing with full expression.
When those 3 guys -bass drums and rhythm guitar are locked together that way, that's when a band can cook , the singer can shine, and the lead player stands out.
Some guitar players can't stay locked in that way for too long, they get bored... but to obtain a true groove it's necessary.
6/30/2008 10:45:32 AM
Milhouse,
I make a living teaching music students, guitar or otherwise. The vast majority of them know more about music than you'll ever know. Most of that majority play far better than you'll ever play, and they *all* would agree that I'm not, nor have I ever been condescending. Of course, they all have class, and don't require any kind of nasty retort.
But feel free to quote me saying anything condescending where I wasn't attacked first.
6/30/2008 10:49:25 AM
Thanks for that suggestion Swanee. I'll try to find it.
6/30/2008 10:51:53 AM
how do you know they know more than i'll ever know?
how do you know i suck?
i mean, its totally true, i completely suck, but you wouldnt know that now would you.
maybe i should tell people i am the quintesential guitarist.
who sings on your tracks??? quintesential singer i'm sure.
i hear what your going for, but honestly the rythem sounds sloppy and laggard.
