What did you say?

Letting one's over inflated sense of self esteem and egotism get in the way of musicality.

ken,,,,i really can't say bad musician because everybody has their creative outlet somewhere. but i attended a jam nite on monday nite. now,, it's a jam,,and anything goes,,i realize this. but what really caught my attention was the people that are just starting out,,or maybe playing for a while,,,,they made sure everyone noticed them after they played an e chord. i saw that they were more interested in being noticed than playing the instrument. it was funny to watch(rock moves and such)!
the pros that got up there,,just stuck to the business at hand without the fanfare!
now i know this doesn't have much to do with being a "bad" musician. but the disparity was so obvious!

Is there such a thing as a "bad" musician?

I guess a musician who thinks their playing level is way beyond what it really is. I dunno about the idea of ego and bad musicianship. If you can play the hell out of your instrument but have a huge ego, I would argue that you're still a good musician, you just also happen to be an a$$.

I guess I would stick with the idea that a bad musician doesn't know his abilities and constantly plays beyond them even tho they should stick to what they know.

ha, ha,donny!

I think it goes further than their capabilities.

If it's someone you wouldn't hire in your band (whether you have one or not), then they are a bad musician.

Strictly from a fan's perspective. . .
Having no "feel" contributes to what I think makes a bad musician. I'm not saying it's not ok to learn a song from a chart initially, but a "bad" musician can't deviate from the note-for-note way they learned it.

I know a guy who is a technically great player-but he won't jam because he "hasn't learned" the songs in advance.

Live music is never the same twice and that's OK-a good musician can (and should) go with the flow.

Thanks for listening

Reminds me of a quote from "Top Gun".

JESTER: (to Merlin, discussing Maverick): Tell me this, if you were flying into battle, would you want him on your team?
MERLIN: I don't know......

Meaning, even though he had his flaws, and could be volatile at times, is he a valuable asset. I've played with some GREAT, GREAT players, who will never get a call from me again, nor get a reference. Not that their lives are going to change because Jim Zaroulis never called or referred them again, but in MY eyes (and ears), they aren't useful, and neither are bad musicians.

I don't know why one of those got cut off.

It should have read "Phoning it in".......meaning...."Yeah, I'm here, but not really."

Oh, and I forgot one important one.............

Oh, there he is........

"don't attempt to 'educate' an audience that's drinking and looking for a good time on a Friday nite."

Good advice.

Hmm, that's a tuffy.

I think most musicians have "bad musician" moments.

I'd rather say what I think makes a great musician, keeping in mind that there's nothing wrong with being a good musician, and I'd bet a bad musician is someone no one wants to play with any way. (except other bad musicians)

Plexi hit it on the head at the beginning.
LISTEN
A 'mediocre" musician (meaning not very skilled or proficient) can rise himself up to being a good musician (even without having the skills or proficiency) simply by listening, and keeping it simple. Most of the time, that's all any position in music calls for.

But so as not to run screaming from Plexi's assignment:

A bad musician:
Doesn't listen.
Overplays.
Is too loud.
Shows up late.
Refuses to try anything new.
Plays things wrong (as in, wrong chords, wrong melodies) and doesn't fix it even when told he's playing it wrong.
And of course there's the obvious:
Doesn't know how to play his instrument.

Im not going to say thier bad musicians but to me what makes for a bad show is to be to loud and to stick to a set list when patrons are making requests i dont meen like just one drunk guy but the whole room. you are playing for them right??

With Linda's Sports Bar as well!

For those of you musicians who don't take requests, TRY IT, YOU'LL LIKE IT!

I've had nights saved by audience requests, in fact most great nights are because of requests. Songs that I know, yet never would have thought to play get requested, and save the night!

Be brave, risk screwing up. They usually just respect you for trying.

(yes, there are times where it blows up in your face, but 90% of the time, the audience is so on your side it all works out)

A bad musician has no clue.

A bad musician never seems to know that he is one.

'zzzzzzzzzzactly!

Ok, I thought of one, and it happened to me.

Knowing what your 'role' is. My job in a band is to do XX, not anything else, unless called for by circumstance or need.

I've been guilty many times of going outside my role when it wasn't needed.

Some gigs need that structure, some don't. So, I guess I've been bad at times :-)

ouch!..... we always plan at least an extra set of "swap outs" I've meade stlists I thought were killer and thery were-to the night...... I feel your passion and it is a lot of work that is sorely underpaid, but the only way it gets any pay is by getting people to come, to stay and to drink..... we all gotta work together Buddy

-

Fan POV:
A lot of stuff, liked dropped notes, forgotten lyrics, messy beginnings and endings, predictable or lame set lists, bad dressers, can be forgiven, IF it is obvious that the band is having a good time.
Admittedly, I have impossibly high standards for someone with no musical talent whatsoever, but I credit my amazingly talented brothers and close friends for that.
What I cannot ever forgive and what will sour me for certain is if a band, musician, takes themselves too seriously. You're not up there saving the world, and it's not a rock concert. Turn it the heck down so the people who have come to socialize and enjoy the tunes can talk a bit, and for christ's sake, have a good time.

That's my .02. There are no bad musicians.
But then again, what do I know.

Well so far all I've read here mostly the relationship with working with musicians.

Doesn't creativity play a role in this equation?

Are you a bad musician if you find it hard to work with people but are abosolutely brilliant creating music?

Is your personaliy the only factor to use to define a good musician or a bad one?

It's actually quite common to be a complete ass and listen to nobody but be incredibly talented.

Eddie VanHalen, Axle Rose, The original singer for Pink Floyd who nose dived on National TV.

Unfortunatley many of the worst musicians as much of this thread has defined as being bad actually have contributed a great deal of the best music.

So what's a good musician?

Lisa,

Linda was NOT bashing the hard work of being a musician.

But she, as a club owner sets the rules. She hires you and if she tells you to play all your songs like they are polkas, she has every right to do that. Her cash, her room, her gig.

Of course, you don't have to take the gig.

We all have to grina nd bear it when a patron comes up and asks for a song. But there are an equal number of times that a NOT drunk person asks to hear a song. They weren't involved in hiring the band, but they are there and the band's job, as simple as it is, is to keep that patron there and spending money.

Nothing more.

If you are an original artist and are playing gigs with your own material, then you are lucky and can play for yourself and hope people listening will dig it.

If you are a cover band, sorry, but it's not about you. You are like a bartender, cook, waitress or other staff member. You are there to keep patrons in the bar.

If you go with that "we only play out setlist" or "we don't take requests" your band will just not get booked at those clubs.

Corporate gigs are a whole other story.

ok stirr so when your fans are there reqeusting you play your songs that they like nope sorry its not in our set list tonite so we will not do it thats just wrong and no ive never been in a band but ive hand bands in my bar every saturday for the last 2 years ive seen groups of patrons get up a walk out for less than that

Carl Ayotte has a big book of music in front of him at his Garrison's gig. If it's in that book, he can play it. If it's not, he'll learn it for next time. I have sent him a request on a friday afternoon and he has played it for me THAT night.
Carl is a GREAT musician, on the social end and the "business" end. Top notch. Learn from him.

Thanks Barb, we all do what we do.

I mean, "Sgt. Pepper" was released on on a Thursday and Hendrix already had it learned by that Saturday! Even the greats play requests!

I have see that work more than once. Someone will request something a band doesn't know and they will say nicely that they don't know it but will be back there in a month and will do it then if they come back.

The people come back to hear the song!!

LOL

The audience has given me most of my surefire songs.

I'm a musician, so by definition that ironically means I don't listen to a lot of music that normal people listen to. Going back to my RumRunner days, and straight through to now, here's some songs I never would have done except for repeated requests:

Laid (by James)
Blister in the Sun
Mustang Sally
Brown Eyed Girl
Pour Some Sugar On Me
You Shook Me All Nite Long
Save A Horse, Ride A Cowboy (actually that was Shine telling me what HIS audience told him)

And countless more. The audience is our greatest resource.

Out of all of this, I think CM hit the nail on the head closest for what *I* feel is the correct response.

Bascially - someone who doesn't "listen" to other musicians or what's going on around them. The ones who are not team players. If you cannot connect with others, then I think by and large you failed in your role.

Lisa, when did you decide to be out of the club scene?

lowellrocks.com/forum/thread/...

Jim,
Decided this over 5 years ago. We are not "club" material. Our web site spells it out, nicely. thestirr.com
We are booked into July 2009. Not being a poo poo snob, but, we just don't have the time for "howmany are ya gonnabring?".

visit our web site......you'll understand. Call me or email me if you'd like to..well, talk.

Lisa

No, I wasn't trying to debate. Just by one of your posts you said you were OUT of the club scene (not that that's a bad thing), but I noticed you emailed that agent looking for a band at his club. I checked it out too because I'm always looking for another gig.

by the way, Jim
I have a few "friends" that are looking for Club Venues and I like to keep professional. I am not in the "agent" business....my friends are my friends and I like to help them out.

I don't know about a bad musician but here is what I HATE seeing/hearing as a fan:

-Someone who cannot take a solo and make it their own... no they play the solo exactly as the original. LAME. As a cover band that's you're chance to show your originality, skill, and talent, and if you don't do it, then I think it's poop.

-When someone who sings off key or just wrong all around... KEEPS singing. it's painful. stop it.


I have more but I'll type 'em later. I'mtoo lazy right now. lol

I make bad musicians...end of story.

OK..I will chime in here. I do believe that a band should at least listen to what the crowd says and if it fits, then play it. But, the request should be reasonable. I mean, a country band is not going to play "Youve got Another Thing Comin."

And as far as muscians, not being too full of themselves....I have seen it plenty. I even had a guy in one of my bands walk off stage right in the middle of a song just because he didnt like the tune. And although it was explained to him that it was REQUESTED by people who paid the 5 dollars to hear it, he could care less and put his guitar down and walked off....

I would personally like to publically flog that person KC, whoever it is.

I HATE THAT!!!!

I'm going to have my band do a country version of "Another thing comin'" now.

Erin - I agree with you and Jim at the same time.

Yes, there should be times you "let it rip"... but the key to (IMHO) any successful cover/tribute band is nailing the "core" elements of a song. If you honor the key element(s)... you have a LOT of liberty to make the song your own and have it STILL sound like the original.

As Jim said - SOME songs, the Solo is a "staple" element and should not be mucked-with. There are certain things that a crowd "expects" in certain songs - and if you screw with those... you screw with the perception of your ability to play the song correctly.

Oh believe me Erin, no one likes to extend and be creative more than I. But...........getting back to the general idea of the thread........we have to play TO the audience. They will have MORE respect and enjoyment when you play what they expect THEN give them more!

I actually LIKE those solos in those tunes, and given the opportunity (meaning if I'm on a gig without a guitar) I take it upon myself to learn the solos.

What do you think I bought the damn keytar for???

A good musician knows when to do what.

A bad musician is not open the opposite.

oh here's one:

A sing who knows NOTHING about ANY of the equipment or gear on stage, other than how to plug in their own stupid mic.

i agree erin and then act as if they are gods gift to all as they strut around as the band sets up

. . .or don't help set up at all

that's coz you're a goat.

Oh right.....let's move the goats comments to a 'Playpen' thread...LOL

Some great points on this thread so far.
Erin makes a very good point if you think about it. It shows how different people come from different angles. I agree with her. Granted as JZ and others stated there are 'signature' solos that are expected, but even if I play something like the solo in 'Sweet Child' or 'Comfortably Numb', it may be virtually note accurate, but it still sounds like me playing it.....that could be good or bad depending on your viewpoint. The point I'm making is that even with signature pieces I prefer to hear the players input, even if it's just dynamics rather than trying to clone the original.

There's a new one.... a 'bad musician' has no dynamics.
And of course....
A bad musician doesn't know when to stop drinking.

lets see how badly I can get beat up............ Were the Ramones "good musicians"?

Alan,
If a bad musician includes musicians that don't know when to stop drinking wouldn't that pretty much sum up/include most of the greatest musicians/bands of all time? LOL...

Any musican that makes me look good and sound good is top shelf.


i am only 1/2 joking - really good musicians don't just impress by being individually virtuostic - thats easier than makeing others arouond them sound better.

the other side of it is, don't show up as a replacement act for the "Good Ole Boys" if you don't know Rawhide...

or you suck.

Reading all of this... I think we mostly agree, and with every answer, there's a compelling reason why the "opposite" might be appropriate for that circumstance given.

Our perception and definition of "good" can change in the blink of an eye depending on how we frame it mentally.

Someone mentioned not drinking to excess, being a team-player and having respect for fellow musicians, etc...

On a "local" club-gig level... I am there with ya... but, then re-frame your mind to think about what a miserable drunk Clapton was for YEARS... Bonham died from excess... Hendrix, etc.

They obviously fall outside of our "local, gigging musician" rules of being "good".

Again - it's all opinion. What makes a good color...?

I have shared the stage with musicians who are PHENOMENAL "players"... but don't have the "x-factor" and personality-wise I just would not want to share the stage with them again.

Are they "good"...? SURE! But so what...?

I guess that ultimately, someone being a "good musician" is just ONE of many factors in the overall equation of their desirability.

I will name names because he no-longer lives in this area, but I was once in a band with a guy, Eric Crabbendam... FAR from the most technical players... not the cleanest in execution... but I would play with him in a HEARTBEAT if he came back to the area because of his "feel"... his style... his sense of timing... his creativity & approach... he was FUN to play with and VERY creative. I would choose HIM over some of the VERY accomplished players I've performed with.

He may not have been as "good" a technical player as others... but as a musician, I would choose him in a second.

ya know what really sucks?

musicians that DONT play the full version of semi-charmed life.

;)

you are on the list pal.

Rhetoric, my friend... rhetoric. I already KNOW the answer. :)

A bad musician to me is the musician that doesn't play within his/her means. Too many times they try to play something they just can't play or sing well. It comes across as hacky or unprofessional.

I feel touch that as a fan, I said something worthwile. lol

you windbags said it all!
oh hear is one
excessive gas makes a bad musician