hose with a Music degree. Can you answer this?
I've seen this too many times for it to be just a typo but for some reason when ever I research chord progressions it seems when it comes from a country or nashville type source. The 3rd is always a major 7th chord instead of a minor chord.
Now I'm not talking about the use of secondary dominants V7 to I.
I mean charts that clearly identify III7 instaed of IIIm7.
What gives? If key of C major / A minor has no sharps or flats. Why do they chart the E7 as the third chord of the scale yet it contains a G#.
Is it just a different scale that makes the Key of C have a G# in it? And if so would it not be a referenced to it?
Here is one such chart that I know of but not the only one I've seen.
howmusicreallyworks.com/pgs_p...
12/26/2007 6:59:46 PM
I know the chart isn't very clear but I have the real chart. And the place in question is about at 7-8 o'clock on the dial.
12/26/2007 7:02:07 PM
Don't confuse major 7 or (B in the key of C) with dominant or (flat 7--B flat)
If, by chance, the piece of music was framed in a modal cadence (aeolian or pure minor in the case) then the third could be expressed as a major triad. In other words, if you are in the key of C and were referring to the 6th or relative minor as the 1st, then it follows that the 3rd in this context would be major. This is how you could have a Cma7 as a III chord.
Then this is probably not what you're getting at anyway....
Professor Paul
12/26/2007 9:46:59 PM
Harmonic Minor baby!!
12/26/2007 10:15:26 PM
OK Ab instead of G# b6th.
But doesn't the harmonic Minor also include the b3rd?
That would make it an Eb.
12/26/2007 10:52:09 PM
No, Jim means "A" Harmonic Minor.
A B C D E F G# A
That means the chord built on the E is an E7(E G# B D). It's the five chord in A Harmonic, but it sounds like you're looking at it from C being the root. Which makes its the III chord. (I wouldnt bother looking at it that way though)
Hope this helps.
12/26/2007 11:19:20 PM
This is like school of Rock, for FREE..my kind of school. I love to learn. Thanks Guys!!
12/26/2007 11:27:16 PM
The 3rd in a harmonic minor key would be augmented -- #5 or whole tone I, maj 3rd, #5.
It is interesting to "note" that in a harmonic minor context, the 6 chord lends itself to either major, minor, or diminished chords because of the major seventh against an otherwise minor framework.
Actually, the only pop song (or at least one of the very few pop songs) I've ever heard composed in a harmonic minor key was "S.O.S." by the Swedish group ABBA. The information or key to the whole song is spelled out in those descending double stops on the piano cascading into the verse.
Aside from that you'd have to look to guys like Steve Howe from Yes that consistently employed that scale in pieces such as "Mood For A Day", "Close To The Edge" or in his Telecaster solo in "Soundchaser" off of the Relayer album.
That scale is also quite prevalent in Greek music as well.
12/26/2007 11:32:22 PM
sorry I re-read your first post.
You're talking about the Nashville number system. This is a little different than what is taught around here. Similar though.
Addendum: My last comment in parenthesis should be disregarded. You SHOULD bother to look at it that way if you're going to understand the way they read charts down there. Even though you're in A minor they are calling A the VIm and not the I. Making E7 the III and not the V.
Get it.....got it....good!!!
12/26/2007 11:39:08 PM
p.s.
Berklee Bill if you're out there, you've done sessions down there and used these charts. Do I have it right or do they call the I the I no matter what?
12/27/2007 12:14:29 AM
Always look where the progression is going.
If you think about it a chords tension role is formed by the chord following it.
Music works in reverse.
12/27/2007 12:15:26 AM
rob you've done sessions down there too. Did I read the diagrams he posted correctly?
I can't imagine that on a chart they would call the I chord in Aminor VImin.
12/27/2007 12:18:05 AM
no..... whatever chord is tonic is "1"
12/27/2007 12:22:36 AM
sidenote..(sorry).....pet peave. When a song is in a key. It is in that particular key. It may share the same notes as a bunch of other modes/keys. But, it is not in those keys/modes and does not relate tension wise.
For example if the damn song is in "A" minor it is not in "C" major. They may share the same notes but do not relate in any way tension wise.
rant done.
12/27/2007 12:26:52 AM
That's what I thought. But then I looked at what juice posted and found some other diagrams that were similar that had the III chord listed as III7 when they were talking about Harmonic Minor. Very strange... Don't like it.
12/27/2007 12:27:20 AM
You're all thinking way too much.
12/27/2007 12:27:35 AM
no such thing as harmonic minor......merely modal interchange. You need a strong resolution in a minor key? Well the vm7 to i isn't gonna do it. Solution make the V a V7 to i and you get a strong tension/release due to the tritone present in the V7.
12/27/2007 12:30:58 AM
Maybe. But I'm perplexed by the system juice linked on his initial post.
12/27/2007 12:31:13 AM
Things get really interesting when you borrow from all the other modes. A simple 2 5 1 can get pretty out there.
12/27/2007 12:33:02 AM
Well, don't take it personally, but the whole thing gives me a headache.
Guitar players never say G#.
There's no such thing.
12/27/2007 12:35:07 AM
G# is like God.
We have a feeling it exists, but we aren't really sure.
12/27/2007 12:36:18 AM
A# is a conspiracy theory.
12/27/2007 12:37:22 AM
Eb exists though. I've seen it.
12/27/2007 12:37:51 AM
oh ok forget it. The one time I get excited about a post. ;-)
12/27/2007 12:40:28 AM
If you plug Yoko Ono into a harmonizer and a dog barks you can invent brand new chords.
12/27/2007 12:41:15 AM
No, sorry, don't mind me. Go on analyzing the chords and scales.
That can be fun.
Like Sudoku.
12/27/2007 12:43:32 AM
I quit while I was ahead.....
12/27/2007 12:50:15 AM
Nah it's ok I think I'm all set. It was more a question of symantics on my part. I was under the impression that a tomato up north was more like a orange down south. What Juice brought up made the tomato look like a volkswagon. So I was confused.
But I'm good now.
12/27/2007 12:50:31 AM
Don;t quit. This was finally getting interesting.
12/27/2007 12:51:04 AM
how bout we just talk about boobies
12/27/2007 12:53:47 AM
What's there to talk about?
Its not enough to sustain me.
This is a major thread about a subject of minor importance to me, but soon it will be augmented and eventually it will diminish entirely.
12/27/2007 12:57:33 AM
...and go flat...
12/27/2007 12:58:09 AM
I was feasting on roast beast and Who pudding.....
12/27/2007 1:03:28 AM
I want to play free form jazz like I used to.
12/27/2007 1:04:31 AM
I want to find new chords by licking the toaster while playing my dobro.
You laugh, but it could happen.
12/27/2007 1:10:21 AM
Free form jazz is the hardest to master. One has to have complete mastery of tension and release to truly communicate.
12/27/2007 1:11:41 AM
Think of the overtones, the resonance!!
12/27/2007 1:12:30 AM
I also want to invent a chord numbering system for the deaf.
That way, when you pretend you know what the fuck you're talking about they have to believe you.
The more confused they are, the smarter you seem to be.
Always remember that. Even if you aren't deaf.
12/27/2007 1:13:51 AM
You start flicking those fingers around, naming the really hard chords, and they'll stare at you like a Mongoloid at a magic show.
12/27/2007 1:15:32 AM
Then you say the word NASHVILLE.
12/27/2007 1:16:24 AM
I think you might be the first person to use the word Mongoloid in a lowellrocks thread!! Now that's money!!
12/27/2007 1:17:40 AM
That way you could "sign" the chords of the song along with the lyrics. It would work wonders......providing that the deaf person had perfect pitch!!
Some of the great symphonic composers were so imbued with perfect pitch they could sit in a crowded room full of background noise and score lavish, complex symphonies armed with only a pencil and staff paper. They could transpose what they heard in their heads so clearly. That's perfect pitch!
12/27/2007 1:20:14 AM
The other night, I played Silent Night as loud as I possibly could.
I broke a string and got very few presents.
It could be a direct result of me misreading the Nashville Numbering System without my Bi-Focals on.
The 3rd is always a major 7th chord instead of a minor chord, when I'm drunk.
12/27/2007 1:21:49 AM
I saw Roger Clemens throw a perfect pitch once.
What a shot in the ass that was.
12/27/2007 1:23:52 AM
perfect pitch......or extremely good relative pitch. Perfect pitch is the ability to instantly recognize a pitch and it's exact frequency. One with relative pitch may be able to tell you a certain pitch but not it's exact frequency.......relative pitch "It's an A note" .....perfect pitch "It's an A but it's a tiny bit sharp ( some played 443Hz)
12/27/2007 1:26:20 AM
That's okay. It's like playing the most basic tunes with such weird chord substitutions that the song is rendered practically indecipherable. It's like playing a Dm7 of the 7th inversion or something. Something that only Joe Pass could get away with.
12/27/2007 1:28:58 AM
Isak Hayes is on Conan. I gotta gp.
12/27/2007 1:33:46 AM
Roger Clemens!!! :-)
Yeah, relative pitch is being able to distinguish a note in reference to another note by its intervalic relationship.
There are some things that I always can pick out. Maj 7 chords being one of them.
12/27/2007 1:34:49 AM
Thank you Mike Valaras. It seemed like you were probably the only one that looked at those charts I posted.
As you can see I'm too am perplexed. Regardless of all of the senarios a minor scale can be. These charts do not distinguish that they refer to minor keys at all withought the Major scale as being the root.
It has always been my understanding the Nashville system is nothing more that a roman numeral approach to make it easier for transposing. Nothing more.
So the question still remains to me is Why do they place it in a chart to establish the III7 be the standard and not just an option in a Major Key?
Even though it is quite comfortably a secondary dominant. A Secondary Dominant is the exception, not the rule.
Isn't it?
12/27/2007 7:54:47 AM
OK I found my answer.
JZ had it right all along. Baby!! :-)
It is a Harmonic Minor scale yet forced to be associated to the Maj scale and written out as an accidental.
juicerocks.com/harmonic%20min...
12/27/2007 9:36:28 AM
i seriously love this thread. makes my brain work.
12/27/2007 9:49:15 AM
I only clicked on it because I thought it related to gardening/irrigation products... But for this, I got nothin'
12/27/2007 9:53:28 AM
Quit worrying about scales. If you try to make every measure of every song fit into one scale, you'll go nuts.
It's all about the chord progression. There are chord tones, and non chord tones. Some sound good, and some sound bad. Or, some sound boring, and some sound rich. Depends on how sweet you like your coffee.
E7 to Am. Wow. Big whoop.
12/27/2007 10:46:26 AM
In my expereince, the I has been the "moveable" I as mentioned by Rob K. And III7, to me, has always implied the invocation of the Lydian b7 mode, but your mileage may vary
12/27/2007 11:26:17 AM
"JZ had it right all along...."
If only EVERYONE thought like that.........
12/27/2007 11:35:26 AM
Just close your eyes
&
feel for the right note
use your heart
works for me
12/27/2007 11:43:40 AM
I just want to know how many of you wrote a song in a minor key and actually used the III Chord as Augmented.
CrazyCat, you said you can only think of ONE pop song written in Harmonic Minor? I have to respectfully disagree with you and point out that I'm positive you've heard more than one pop song written in harmonic minor.
You may be thinking of melodic lines rather than the V7 chord found in both Major and Minor keys. Melodically the raised 7th degree does suggest some sort of "eastern" vibe. But as far as harmony, for every pop song in a minor key you can think of that doesn't have the V7 chord, I'll list 5 that do.
Not trying to be arrogant, just trying to understand what you meant.
12/27/2007 11:56:52 AM
rush i think when you close your eyes and use the force in music, you are going down the same road as someone that knows theory inside and out, you just use curb feelers to stay on the road instead of looking out the windsheild.
if you can do it that way, you just have a different language for communitacting it and understanding music, or something.
me personally, i can fish for notes, and learn how to play, but it takes longer than reading a map, and the map gives me more clarity (and shows me WHAT I DON'T KNOW!!! ouch)
12/27/2007 12:10:42 PM
Christ, JZ answered juice's question in the 4th post on this thread. The rest of this has nothing to do with what he was asking.
All I wanted to know, was if I had the nasville system understood or if I missed something. Thanks for chiming in Bill.
12/27/2007 12:20:19 PM
All I wanna know is who is Juice calling ho's?
12/27/2007 12:21:50 PM
Juice is pimpin out anyone that has a music degree.
pimpin aint easy.
12/27/2007 12:26:02 PM
I knew what harmonic minor was before I went to college. As I'm sure most of the others who posted did too. So needing a music degree to answer Juice's question is a moot point.
The Nashville system is easy. Master your Instrument - wear cowboy hat - denounce jazz - make $$$.
12/27/2007 12:32:36 PM
yeeeeep! Sorry I didnt call you on christmas. Havent been feeling well. You'll get your gift on the gig friday.
12/27/2007 12:39:29 PM
i think he's still callin you a ho, JZ.
I think i could pull off the nashville system, except for the master your instrument part. can i get a waiver for that part?
i guess western swing isn't exactly country or nashvile? thats' pretty jazzy stuff!
12/27/2007 12:41:27 PM
You know, I was thinking the same thing my friend. And I have a little flip - flop for you as well.
If anyone thinks we're gay right now I don't care.
12/27/2007 12:41:41 PM
"I knew what harmonic minor was before I went to college. As I'm sure most of the others who posted did too. So needing a music degree to answer Juice's question is a moot point."
Actually my question wasn't what a Harmonic Minor scale was.
My question was how is it they make charts using a relative major key that isn't the same as the harmonic scale.
Seeing how I have found it out I do think that specific question couldn't of been answered by just anybody who knows the harmonic scale.
Furthermore I did write a pop song :-) that embraces the III7 while in the key of "C" / Am. "When I see you tonight" the first song I did at my first songpull.
I also used a IVm as well as a IImaj. I wrote that song to employ a typical chord progression I read out of a book. I just never knew how or why it worked.
Much appreciated.
12/27/2007 12:53:09 PM
No Juice. Not pure minor. I meant "harmonic" minor. There's a difference between the 7ths, giving the music that Arabian feel to it. Think of the first six notes of Bach's Bouree —that's what I'm talking about, that kind of figure.
12/27/2007 2:15:10 PM
I understand that harmonic minor really hadn't figured into your initial question.
12/27/2007 2:16:23 PM
I was only reacting to JZ's statement earlier on.
12/27/2007 2:17:10 PM
CrazyCat now worries. I really didn't understand much of what you said anyways. Don't forget, I'm not educated in music. Those fine points kind go right over my head anyways.
So here is the recap in case those who are curious but coudn't bare reading the whole thread.
Ths initial question based on study charts I have was this:
"What gives? If key of C major / A minor has no sharps or flats. Why do they chart the E7 as the third chord of the scale yet it contains a G#."
Ultimately the answer I found that satisfied this question was:
Standard key signatures are all designed for the major scale.
The Harmonic Minor in this case contains a distinctly different set of intervals which do not exactly match with any Major Scale. Therefore it is associated the the closest key signature with the use of accidentals. Which in this case is C / Amin.
12/27/2007 3:15:28 PM
and if my hose had a music degree, it would, no doubt, feel all tingly in and about the groin area.
12/27/2007 3:17:48 PM
The raised 7th in harmonic minor is not to make something sound "arabian", it is to strengthen the V7 - i cadence.
12/27/2007 3:25:12 PM
I've been waiting all day for the hose comment
thanks man
12/27/2007 3:27:00 PM
I got hosed alot when I was pursuing my music degree.
12/27/2007 3:36:40 PM
If you are in the key of C and the chart says E7, it's probably there for one reason.
Cause that's the way the person wrote it.
Just cause it has a basis in theory or a mode or a scale doesn't mean a damn thing when you get right down to it, unless you are writing a thesis on theory.
Some guys write stuff that has a cool change in it, I would say a lot of composers are NOT thinking about modes and scales when they are writing, they just happen to be running a chord change with a melody and suddenly WHAMMO a III7 chord finds it's way into the progression.
Does it mean it's wrong? Nope. If that's what you write, then it ain't wrong.
12/27/2007 4:02:07 PM
Key of C and the progression is C to E7?
Most likely you'd go to Am
Sometimes F
or even A7
Or anywheres else you want!!!
12/27/2007 4:05:42 PM
Ah, reminds me of that classic joke:
Where does a 500lb gorilla playing in the key of C go after he plays an E7 ?
Anywhere he wants.
12/27/2007 5:20:37 PM
I agree with you stunt as far as someone writing out song charts. Because anything goes as long as you make it work.
But the charts I refered to were actually study charts where the Nashville system they refered to used the E7 not an exception but the actual rule in all keys. (Not in a song).
12/27/2007 5:27:19 PM
Somebody is breaking the "rules" or maybe it's most likely a typo. In a major key the III chord is always minor.
12/27/2007 8:46:58 PM
uggghhh!
12/28/2007 12:48:03 AM
"In a major key the iii chord is always minor".
Only if it's acting as a iii chord.
Listen to these tunes CrazyCat.
"On the Road Again" - Willie Nelson
"All of Me" - by anyone
"Imagine" - John Lennon
all the iii chords are either major or Dominant 7's
It all comes down to voice leading. No rules are being broken at all.
Are we still on Juice's subject?.........I'm lost.
12/28/2007 12:52:46 AM
That's what I'm ugghiiiingg about. Poor juice asked a legit question about a specific diagram he found on a website. Nobody took the time to study and analyze the link he posted and instead decided to play "Dept. of Harmony, Lowellrocks school of music, look how much I know".
Sorry Juice I tried. This fucking sucks. Last post, I'm out!
12/28/2007 1:02:27 AM
In layman's terms .... I've always thought one of the fundamental tenets of music is "there are no rules". There are only guidelines amd chordal associations that link peices together in a pleasant (or not so pleasant) way.
Take it easy Mike! I couldn't even try to answer Juice's questions unless I actually played the piece. Even then, I could
only suggest "something doesn't sound right" or that's sounds nice"
12/28/2007 8:57:57 AM
I'm extremely upset by all of this!
I don't think I'll be able to eat because I'm so upset!
12/28/2007 9:36:45 AM
...Mmmmm...HAM AND EGGS!!!
12/28/2007 9:38:23 AM
Hey Mike V, Thanks for being on the same page as me.
But just so YOU know because no one else really seems to care :-)
That wasn't a chart that I found online. Well sort of. I actually have two of those charts that I orded when I ordered some other posters.
I know the picture I posted wasn't very clear. But the actual descrtiption on this charts reads
"Harmonic Scales with Nashville Numbers for ALL Major and Minor Keys"
That is how it reads at the top of the page.
So it is not a Typo but intentional to imply the Harmonic Scale applies to the Major Keys as well.
So I will derive from that and maybe I'm wrong that perhaps in country or nashville flavored music this particuar scale is more favored than the traditional Major scale which from what I have gathered so far is less forgiving than in The Classical flavored format.
Perhaps the traditional major scale is becoming less and less the norm as far as foundations go. Who knows? Not Me! LOL.
12/28/2007 9:47:15 AM
You are right Juice. I don't care, but don't take that personally.
I just don't see the reason for sitting around analyzing the minutia of Nashville numbering systems.
This thread started on the 26th. In the time it's taken to argue about it, I've recorded 3 new tracks and I'm beginning to mix down another tune. Hopefully it'll be done today.
12/28/2007 10:54:07 AM
And those ham & eggs were good too.
12/28/2007 10:54:52 AM
Kennium,
"You are right Juice. I don't care, but don't take that personally.
I just don't see the reason for sitting around analyzing the minutia of Nashville numbering systems."
Actually it wasn't me analyzing it as in depth as some have gotton in this thread. But that's often the nature of this "eat It To Death message board.
But curious why you are evn on this thread if you really didn't care. :-)
BTW we welcome newly written song at the Song Pulls.
12/28/2007 11:08:08 AM
Ken, you know I luv ya, but......
"I just don't see the reason for sitting around analyzing the minutia of Nashville numbering systems."
A tad condescending my friend. Juice was looking for a solution from the learned, not an opinion from the masses. Imagine the next time you post one of your songs here (all great songs in my opinion), someone says "I really don't have the time to listen to your songs and how your recorded them. In the time it took me to listen to it, I was able to use 3 cans of turtle wax on my Dodge Dart." Would you care? Probably not, but the intent of the post is condescending and harsh.
It's true, Mike V is the only one who actually looked at the link, the rest was clutter (myself included, although I was only defending the reputation of Harmonic Minor). Did this post go way too far....probably, but it definately was refreshing to finally talk about music on this site. I say let's keep it going.
Here is a topic, discuss:
The Neopolitan. Useful tool or pretentious waste of a chord?
12/28/2007 11:19:20 AM
i'd stack a cord of wood but im afraid the devils interval will curse me and id be burried under a pile of wood. I'd say burn the neopolitan unless it weighs as much as a small rock.
I have to say kennium, this is useful and interesting banter for me. well excpt the battle over who can be more condesending. thats not useful, but it does brighten up my dreary existance.
maybe you ARE a douche after all. :)
PS the howmusicreallyworks.com site is a good read.
12/28/2007 11:35:00 AM
Milhouse, you're such a gadfly!
12/28/2007 11:46:35 AM
In answer to Juice, I was curious. Then having looked into it, and I did read the link. I Have seen the Nashville Numbering system before. But I'm not a session musician so it doesn't matter to me. I have no use for it.
If you have a use for it, good for you.
I think it's more fun to play music than to argue about ways to read it.
I guess I'm not as easily fascinated as other musicians.
To me that's not condescending, that's just the truth.
Condescending would be when schooled musicians waste time validating themselves by getting into these pseudo-intellectual
schlong measuring competitions.
Really. Who gives a shit why they chart the E7 as the third chord of the scale when it contains a G#?
I'll go back to my original statement.
You're thinking to much.
Stop being so farging clever.
Play.
You have my complete permission to piss all over me and feel superior during the rest of this thread. I'm outta here to actually play some music. Talk to ya soon. No hard feelings.
12/28/2007 11:46:58 AM
I'm coming over right now to piss on you, make sure you answer the door : )
12/28/2007 11:51:08 AM
kennium, i honestly think that for me, knowing more helps me break on through to the other side.
if you are content with happy accidents then good luck.
Douchebag. :)
12/28/2007 11:56:08 AM
WHOA horsey........WHOA!!!
Don't be talking happy accidents. You've never played a Christmas party at a nursing home, so don't talk about happy accidents.........
I had no beef with Kennium, he's my bud. So no one else should either. I was playfully busting him.
12/28/2007 12:14:22 PM
Knowing more is always good.
If it makes you feel good talk about it all day.
I'm just saying that actually playing and creating music is much better than putting it under a microscope.
12/28/2007 12:16:52 PM
And I ain't mad at anybody because Big Daddy told me once that I ain't a douche-bag, and that's good enough for me.
12/28/2007 12:18:18 PM
jz, i didn't say happy endings....
they don't let me play guitar at work, i have to f-off all day reading about music instead.
given that BD is THE athourity on all things douche related, who can argue that kennium is a douche bag???
12/28/2007 12:27:21 PM
I was trying to stay away but I can't when you throw meatballs like that around
Don't sell yourself short Ken, you're a tremendous douchebag
12/28/2007 12:30:19 PM
So the problem is this NASHVILLE thingy?
Everywhere I look the III chord is minor and sounds right playing the chords as a scale. So a melody in a major scale sounds OK over it. So the chords only support the melody in it's travels. But like any art work I suppose it only matters in the context.
Do Re Mi and all that.
BTW Rules are made to be broken as proven by listening to Crazycat's tunes. I cannot discern any key, chords or melody.
Never mind more subtle things like modes, harmony etc.
You musician types are way too sensitive. PUSSIES !
12/28/2007 12:34:34 PM
Actually this conversation had nothing to do with the Nashville Numbering System.
But thanks for sharing your view on that system Ken.
Additionally I realize I will never follow through with a proper musical education because I too like Kennium will fall short on attention span and go back to making music out of pure spontaneuos ignorance.
But unlike you Kennium I don't have that gift to write music in my head and then later reproduce it from memory.
So I go through these spurts of wanting to understand what thehell I'm doing sometimes even though eventually I will probably forget it.
But in the process I will ulimately come up with something fresh that I will add to my songwriting repitore and if someone by chance asks me what I'm playing. I might be able to tell them. :-)
12/28/2007 12:40:54 PM
Juice, keep it up. Threads like these do help. It cause me to actually think about what I'm doing, instead of winging it
12/28/2007 12:43:38 PM
It's important to remember that your lawn only needs an inch of water each week. If you musicians with degrees choose to use a hose, that's fine! I would, however, recommend an irrigation system... It would free up more of your time to discuss minor keys, chords, etc.
12/28/2007 12:43:42 PM
Hey Al, go change your friggin' oil
12/28/2007 12:44:38 PM
I can see I'm not wanted here...
12/28/2007 12:45:45 PM
NO NO NO ! I just figured it would be a good time. All that plowing and such. A friendly reminder -
12/28/2007 12:47:02 PM
AL your funny. Do you always think about Grass? :-)
The heading was a Typo because I didn't hit the "T" hard enough.
Anyway, I'm Glad JZ appreciates a topic about music. His insite as well as others I'm certain is truly of great value here on LR.
Unlike a book where all this information is plentiful. You can't ask a book a question an get a straight answer. And even though an answer can be vague. It makes me spend time finding that answer instead of engaging in mindless chat like I'm doing right now.
PS AL? I keep watering my lawn but it just freezes on top of the snow and my poor dog looks like Bambie on the pond.
Actually more like Scoobie Doo.
12/28/2007 12:57:43 PM
Skating party at Juice's!!!
12/28/2007 1:05:57 PM
and to mess things up even more...
I like the way the m7 sits at the III spot, just a little tension to push the melody along. WHAAAAAHHH
12/28/2007 1:11:03 PM
Mr. Rob Keeler...
I read your post above regarding "pitch"... I have a question, preceded by a statement:
I have been told I have perfect pitch - to which I vehemently disagree (especially since I cannot HOLD pitch while singing) but I digress. What I CAN do is, sing something in correct pitch from memory... Not sure what it's called.
Example: About a year ago, was sitting with the guys from ACME... we were discussing potential songs to try. I had suggested "Mayor of Simpleton" as an idea and professed how much I love the bass line and proceeded to hum-it-out for Jay (who plays fretless bass). He picked-up his bass and began learning it in the key I hummed it - Joe (the guitarist picked-up his guitar and said "Wait, I kinda know the progression, let me get us in the right key"... and we were spot-on. He was floored.
I just always remember having that ability to be within (is there such thin as an 1/8th-step) a close range to actual pitch.
Now - I don't know A from E from F#... I cannot tell you notes or "keys" per-se... but I can pick-out parts with ease and when something is even slightly out-of-tune. (except for my own friggin' voice - Heheh).
Up until several years ago - I had assumed EVERYBODY did/does that.
So - I know I DO NOT have perfect-pitch... but is there a name for this? Relative Pitch? Somewhat-pretty-good pitch? Ah, just-get-over-yourself pitch? ;)
12/28/2007 1:14:42 PM
if chippa was a broad, the would call him the "perfect bitch".
12/28/2007 1:24:44 PM
I understand that it is quite rare.
12/28/2007 1:25:11 PM
YUP, it's called a professional HUMMER.
12/28/2007 1:26:46 PM
yada yada, something about a 12 inch pianist?
12/28/2007 1:44:05 PM
I think the main problem is that we are not speaking in a language that everyone can understand. Here, I'll translate into TAB.
If you are in this key:
------------
------------
-----5------
... is OK to play this chord:
-----0------
-----0------
-----1------... bad will happen.
12/28/2007 2:26:29 PM
damn font thing. oh well. it wasn't that funny anyway.
12/28/2007 2:27:13 PM
I think the main problem is that we are not speaking in a language that everyone can understand. Here, I'll translate to TAB.
If you are in this key:
"------------"
"------------"
"-----5---... is OK to play this chord:
"-----0------"
"-----0------"
"----1--... bad will happen.
12/28/2007 2:28:34 PM
oh well.
12/28/2007 2:28:53 PM
TAB, just one calorie.
12/28/2007 2:29:54 PM
Juice, you say that this discussion has nothing to do with The Nashville Numbering system. BUT when you click on the link, here's what it says:
"For complete explanations of harmonic scales and Nashville Numbers, consult How Music REALLY Works!, 2nd Edition, especially Chapter 6, which covers these topics in detail, with many examples."
That's what it says.
So, are we clear on that? It does.
Secondly, you say:
"I too like Kennium will fall short on attention span and go back to making music out of pure spontaneuos ignorance."
Is that what you think?
All these years I guess I've been making music out of spontaneous ignorance?
I must just be lucky then.
I spoze I just sit with my instrument and see what comes out?
Is that what you think?
And then there's THIS:
"But unlike you Kennium I don't have that gift to write music in my head and then later reproduce it from memory."
Of course you can do that.
That's exactly what you need to develop if you want to write songs.
Songs aren't written. They're imagined.
They're created from inside. THEN they get written.
Listen to the melodies inside you. It's like catching fish. They're in there swimming around. You're job is to catch the big ones.
12/28/2007 2:31:32 PM
I am not qualified to debate the pros & cons of music theory since I do not KNOW any theory... but I will say this: To each, their own. I was amazed to find-out SO MANY famous & respected musicians do not know a LICK of theory.
Most recent example - I was present at the Sheehan / Pinnick Bass clinic at Daddy's Manchester this past summer... NEITHER of them knew a THING about theory, modes, scales, etc... they just play what they hear in their head(s) and what they feel - not knowing the underlying "reasons" for why it works, but just knowing it DOES work.
I even asked Billy if it ever posed a problem, especially collaborating with such theory-heads as Steve Vai... Was there ever a "frustration-factor" on the part of those that KNEW theory that you've played with...? Has "not knowing the language" been an issue...?
He basically said no.
Now, I'm not saying people DON'T NEED IT... I'm just saying that sometimes it's helpful to have those tools in the tool-box... sometimes using a hammer for everything works. :)
12/28/2007 2:38:41 PM
WOW! Something we can all learn on this thread!... Good advice, right there! Ken, I wish I could get your help on some of the songs I've got swimming around in my head
12/28/2007 2:39:04 PM
Seriously Ken, well said!
12/28/2007 2:45:09 PM
Acme, believe it or not, there are more people WITH perfect pitch that not only can't sing.......they aren't even aware that they have it. People of Chinese and Korean decent are born with it because their language is based on pitches. A slight change in pitch can change the meaning of their words.
Does it make someone a better musician? Yes and no. Visually, I can depict one color from the next easily, but I can't paint a picture worth shite. Meaning, because I can tell burnt sienna from mahogany from indigo from periwinkle blue, I still draw a house with 4 crooked lines.
Do I wish I had it? Yes. Can it be attained? Most definately. In fact I've tried for years to be able to memorize all 12 pitches played one at a time, 2, then three, etc.. I got as far as 5 and I almost slit my wrists.
Sit at a piano, close your eyes, drop your finger and name the pitch. Open your eyes and check to see if you're right (assuming you know the keys of the piano). See if you can do 100 in a row without getting one wrong, but without RELATING one pitch to the one you just played.
It's fun................until you start naming the pitches of an elevator bell, and a police siren........
12/28/2007 3:59:07 PM
i'm still trying to learn the johnny be good lick!
12/28/2007 4:06:29 PM
Well Kennium, I'm sure you mean well. But the Nashville Numbering system on that page just happens to be the only place conveniently that had the evidence of my specific question regarding the III7. And what is on that page doen't exist on my chart as that is the advertisement for that book.
But I don't mind that you just skimmed over the question as many hear did and gave many answers to all but the actual question that promtewd the thread to begin with.
Secondly for someone who doesn't care about this thread your posts are getting quite long and not your usual short liners.
But I seriously do not have that gift you say I can develope. I honestly dont. I have to physically stumble upon somthing while I play and do my damness to remember it or reproduce it. I seriously think I have some kind of ADD when it come to music.
And I'm not proud of it. So the little theory I can stomach and digest can go a long way for someone like me.
I apologize if you took offence to the ignorance comment. But That too is something I am not proud of because I honestly have no clue consiencely when I'm writing a song. I'll start with a few chords or something and totally wing it having no idea where I'm going and I'll either think it sucks or it's worth going in that direction. For me it is totally ingnorance yet some people admire that about my aproach as though I methodicly came up but in truth I was totaly blind to how I came up with it.
12/28/2007 4:08:57 PM
Juice, I'm familiar with the Nashville system. I read an article in KEYBOARD mag about 15 years ago and thought it was the best thing in the world. Your question was as valid and as logical as any other question that pops up on here from time to time.
And my name is Jim Zaroulis and I'm a music theory-phile.
(((((Hi Jim))))
I like theory, and I like putting things under the microscope, and I like to dissect things musically.
Good thing no one told Keeler or Plexi to "forget about how the damn stuff works, just plug it in and play it!"
Have a REAL GOOD DAY EVERYONE!!!!!
COWBOY X, COWBOY X YIPPEEEEE!!!!!!
12/28/2007 4:15:15 PM
I do know the difference between Perfect Pitch and Relative Pitch.
As JZ stated perfect pitch is the ability to distiguish the name of note. Any note all by itself. I think Mozart could even tell the difference in between a semitone.
Relative pitch which I think is far more common having a starting pitch and determine the interval between the first note and the secong note.
I happen to be absolutley horrible at both. I'm even surprized I'm a musician at all. My music is full of crooked lines. :-(
12/28/2007 4:16:38 PM
(((((HI JIM))))) LOL
:-)
12/28/2007 4:18:47 PM
Bruce, Listen to me. No offense taken.
Okay? But just listen to me.
You DO have the power to imagine songs in your head.
If I ask you to think of the melody to Twinkle Twinkle Little Star right now being played on a piano,
...you can picture that right now, can't you?
You can develop your imagination, your musical imagination, the same way.
It's easy. It's the thing that almost all small children are doing when you hear them singing to themselves.
I think it's very important to find those ideas that are inside you swimming around like fish that need to be caught.
I'm not putting down learning theory. I think it's great.
But imagination is more important to me.
Albert Einstein said “The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination.”
12/28/2007 4:32:24 PM
thats why dropping a couple of smurf ladden hits of acid is a shure fire way to instant Mozart.
you can imagine all sorts of shit.
12/28/2007 4:37:46 PM
Thanks for the pep talk Kennuim but it's not a power thing with me. It's more like a fog. Sure I can imagine music in my head and I can take a simple melody like Twinkle Twinkle.
But recreating it physically is like asking a person with a speach impediment to spoke clearly and consise.
But If I hear it I can identify it and if I'm shown I can reproduce it. I literally have Blind ears.
It's just one of those things I've had to deal with my whole life. I'm mostly what you would call a pattern player. If I don't already own that patten or stumble onto it by mistake I can't grab it.
Maybe because my photgraphic memory is always out of film.
Ask people I've played with. They know what I'm talking about.
12/28/2007 4:46:48 PM
my brain works different.
i don't remember dreams.
musically, i play like i speak. i don't imagine having a conversation and then get it out.
in my comfort zone musically, its like speaking in english. outside of my zone, its like speeaking a forieng language, where i have to speak in english in my head and translate before i open my mouth to say it, or i have to pull out the translation dictionary.
understanding how music works, increases my vocablulary, so i dont have to pull out the dictionary.
practicing makes it so its natural english, and doesnt need to be translated in my head before i say it.
12/28/2007 4:53:38 PM
Well Jim, that's what I was trying to say in my initial reply about modes and so on. Then we got off on "harmonic minor" and things spiraled irrelevantly out of control from there......
But then, we're talking about country music here and not some arcane chord substitution that you'd find in jazz.
I'm sure there are many, many instances of chord structures technically in arrears with rudimentary protocol in order to support a melody.
Take for an example almost any song written in any given key—D let's say. If you were to pick up the sheet music and examine the melody, chord structures, leading tones and so forth, you very rarely (if ever) would find that ALL the notes fall within the confines of the key signature— in this case F# and C#. Yet, the song will clearly be in the key of "D".
However, for all practical purposes, the III chord in a major or "Ionian" context is minor.
To print on a chart, whether it be out of a standard book of theory or "Nashville numbering system" that the III chord in a major key is dominant is wrong. This is equivalent to changing or altering a mathematical law like the order of operations when solving an equation or something.
I suppose many of these laws are meant to be broken. Look at the "no parallel fifths" law in the composition of four-part harmony. Basic 7th grade music theory material. Yet, "canon law". My attitude is, "Oh yeah? Watch me!" I mean, where would modern music be or how would it have evolved without people like Arnold Schöenberg or György Ligeti who broke the rules and created new ones?
So, the bottom line is that we're both right in our own ways.
12/28/2007 5:32:07 PM
Crazy Cat
"This is equivalent to changing or altering a mathematical law like the order of operations when solving an equation or something."
I wouldn't agree with this analogy because music isn't technically based on mathematical type laws where it's an exact science.
Music is a learned taste that is developed over time. Westernized music I believe is what we use mostly in this country. Quite different than Japanes Music wher they only have 6 notes and there root is actually in the center of the scale.
Because of that music has an ability to transform against Law.
The Blues Scale I don't think is very old compared to how old music is. But we have adopted it agianst so called mathematical law and made it a new law.
No?
12/28/2007 6:04:52 PM
Math = Music.
it is very much like math. you dont have to use every number, and you can use binary go hexdecimal if you want.
but i dont think you can invent a new note any more than you can invent a new number. you just have to get more into the theory to understand that stuff.
12/28/2007 6:25:33 PM
I got to thinking about the math=music thing earlier today.
It's true... but it is also true that in music, as in math, there are many alternate ways to solve the same problem to a satisfactory result AND there are many different results that can be deemed satisfactory. I really hate to fall back on an old idiom but... That's exactly why it is called a theory....
12/28/2007 6:53:30 PM
Gotta run to the gig right now. But Juice, that's why I said some ( and underscore some) laws can be broken— and especially in regard to music. There are, however, similarities between mathematics and music....
12/28/2007 7:04:02 PM
music is part of the theory of everything. string theory and guitar strings are more connected than you can imagine.
you don't take nothing with you but your soul....
THINK!
12/28/2007 7:09:22 PM
I know there are similarities but only in the context of their aural transmision through air. 220, 440, 880... etc.
But the scale system itself means nothing if we first were not conditioned to digest it in a pre determined way. Just like the way we speak using sounds. If we do not first learn it or become exposed to it it seems alien. There is nothing mathematical about the use of sound be it speach or music.
It's a language not an equation. And so it becomes pretty much limitless by expression.
In fact I belive I did read somewhere that there were in fact more notes on unfretted instruments that we no longer acknowledge that were technically in between our current semi tone structure. But like MP3's it has been compressed to a standard that has been know to not be noticable enough to bother.
12/28/2007 7:20:08 PM
But but but....
Music is math. Tempo, number of notes, semitones (fractions), sharps (addition), flats (subtraction), scales (equal measure) etc etc etc. It's more mathematics than anything. But it is also palatable in different ways. Just like guys like Mike V, Bill or Jim Z can play a b5 on a scale and say "man, that's hip" my ear just doesn't like it.
The difference is in your hearing. The mathematics translates into a language that some hear better than others. Or it translates into tastes, some taste more than others.
Me? Gimme some basic I - IV - V or I - V - IIm7 - IV or even a I - IV - IIm - V and I'm happy.
Now, here is a question. If I tune down half a step and I play by Nashville number charts, is that IIIy really IV7 ?
I kill me, I really do.
12/28/2007 10:20:30 PM
Music is NOT math.
Math is only a way to express music.
12/29/2007 12:55:08 AM
...and Math is a feeble attempt to truly explain music.
I'll stand by that.
12/29/2007 1:00:53 AM
It's like saying that a fishing rod is a fish.
Music is NOT math!
I hate that!
12/29/2007 1:08:20 AM
Math is math.
12/29/2007 1:08:45 AM
Now I'm ALL PISSED OFF!
LISTEN!:
Music is NOT math. Math is math.
Music is Music.
Music is MUCH bigger than math.
Music existed BEFORE Math.
(in recognizable human terms)
Music is more important than math.
Cavemen loved music. They couldn't give a shit about math.
but you can be sure that they sang!
Math can express and even explain parts of Music...
but Music can explain everything.
It has been doing that since we were cave men.
Go ahead...
Subtract and divide that.
Minor third my ass.
12/29/2007 1:20:48 AM
Fuckin SOUND LAWYERS!
12/29/2007 1:24:21 AM
That last one was a joke, by the way,
(some of you might think it was mathematical.}
12/29/2007 1:25:32 AM
OOOOOH I'm all fargin WOUND UP!!!!!
12/29/2007 1:27:03 AM
MUSIC IS NOT MATH!
12/29/2007 1:37:20 AM
MUSIC IS MUSIC!!!
MUSIC IS NOT MATH.
12/29/2007 1:39:23 AM
Oh come on Stunt. That is just plain silly.
Like Kennium said. Math is Math.
You can measure the world by miles and kilometers with longitude and laditude degrees, measure the distance from here to the moon and sun, count how many times the earth spins before it reaches a complete orbit arounf the sun.
Does that mean life is math too? NO!
The first thing that happened when our generation was introduced to midi files which could quantize a perfect arrangement of music was that it didn't feel human.
Sound you can measure and calculate all you want.
But Music is a feeling not a mathematical equation.
And you obviously don't understand the Nashville system. It's not based on pitch at all. It's based on postion. The root of a key stays the same no matter what your are tuned to.
It is designed specifically for transposing by way of pattern instead of knowing all the different enharmonic names of all the notes.
And yes that is a mathematical equation. But it's not music.
12/29/2007 1:49:54 AM
Music is not Math.......................Tell that to J.S. Bach.
Sorry..........but it is.
And why is Math so bad???
12/29/2007 3:12:04 AM
Music is not Math??
Do you think the 12-bar blues was INTENDED? We're the "work songs" configured that way??
I think not......
Poor John Coltrane........."Giant Steps" has nothing to do with it''s mathematical structure..........poor sap!
Kennium.........did I mention I love ya?
It's all math.
MATH ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!
12/29/2007 3:16:30 AM
Precisely Jim.
Take for example the composer Arnold Schönberg, the originator of what is called, "panchromatic" music, "atonality" or the "twelve-tone row". This method of composition also discards the need for key signature.
This method of composition requires that all twelve notes of the scale (all seven notes with adjoining sharps and flats or half-steps) to be played individually before repeating any one of those notes a second time. Try doing that with a full symphonic orchestra with each individual instrument and making harmonic sense of it all.
The first time I heard his atonal violin and piano (Glenn Gould on piano) concertos I had this weird, eerie feeling that I'd never experienced before; that this music was way ahead of its time; almost as if was from some other world. It was so geometric and complex, the harmonies so unearthly. Yet within the seeming complex disarray of the notes there was cohesion, unity and weird harmony.
It is also referred to as "serial music" in that the twelve-tone rows are composed with a strict observance to the order in which the notes are placed in that all have to be played once before any one of them can be played again.
I remember how these compositions were referred to as being highly "mathematical" in the liner notes on the record and you couldn't help but think of math to listen to them either.
Of course there is the heartfelt, spiritual side of music as well.
It's almost as if there is some kind of duality there; that one cannot go without the other.
12/29/2007 3:58:30 AM
